Shaolin Kenpo - Tournaments - do you enter Traditional forms or Kung Fu / Chinese (soft) forms division?

shima

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Hi, I teach Ralph Castro branch Shaolin Kenpo at my school. I'm taking them to their first tournament here in Austin, TX next month and for forms we have 2 division options I see:

Forms (Traditional Forms only)
Kung Fu / Chinese Forms (soft)

My instructor (Master Professor Bill Grossman) said in his early years competing he would compete in the soft/Chinese forms division before the Kenpo/Kajukenbo forms divisions were added out there in the Bay Area. If my students compete in that division though *everyone* 11 and under is in one age group, so pretty much 80% of my students would be in the same division. The traditional forms divisions are have a 5 and under, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11 etc.


I'm still waiting for the promoter to get back to me to see what he thinks Kenpo should compete under, but just wanted to ask you all for what you normally compete in for forms for yourself or your students when you only have those two options at a tournament. Thanks in advance for answering!
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Hi, I teach Ralph Castro branch Shaolin Kenpo at my school. I'm taking them to their first tournament here in Austin, TX next month.
Many years ago, there were 2 Kenpo schools in Austin. One was run by Tony Martinez (north Austin). Another one was run by Gary Swam (south Austin). Does your Kenpo school have anything to do with those schools?

 
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shima

shima

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Many years ago, there were 2 Kenpo schools in Austin. One was run by Tony Martinez (north Austin). Another one was run by Gary Swam (south Austin). Does your Kenpo school have anything to do with those schools?

Nope.
Tony Martinez -> American Kenpo (Ed Parker lineage)
Gary Swan -> looks like he trained under Stephen LaBounty (RIP sir!) who is also American Kenpo

My school is Shaolin Kenpo, Ralph Castro lineage.

When I moved here (I came from the Bay Area) I reached out and was told I was the first person to open a Castro branch Shaolin Kenpo school in TX according to the knowledge of Ralph Castro's webmaster (shaolinkenpo.com) I was actually trying to find a school to train in before I opened my school here a few years back...
 

Kung Fu Wang

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My school is Shaolin Kenpo, Ralph Castro lineage.
Do you teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard?

I still remember one day Gary Swam asked me, "I teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard. What do you teach?" I said, "I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tan, Pao." He had no idea what I was talking about.
 
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shima

shima

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Do you teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard?

I still remember one day Gary Swam asked me, "I teach tiger, crane, snake, dragon, Leopard. What do you teach?" I said, "I teach Cha, Hua, Hong, Tan, Pao." He had no idea what I was talking about.

No, I think he's referring to actual Chinese kung fu systems w/ that question. Those systems have specific sub-styles per animal. My friend owns a kung fu school here in Austin, TX teaches various animal sub-styles in his school. His page: ADULT KUNG FU | Shaolin Martial Arts (it lists the various animal style he teaches)

We do have kata's with some animal names in them though. "Ripping Tiger" "Cobra Strikes Back" "Fire Dragon" etc (nothing with crane or leopard names)

We don't teach styles based on animals, just curriculum and no focus on a specific animal. Founders website is Ralph Castro (RIP): International Shaolin Kenpo Association [Home Page]
My instructors website: Bill Grossman's School of Kenpo Karate
My website: Immortal Tiger Kenpo Karate | Martial Arts School | Austin Texas
 
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shima

shima

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Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.
 

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Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.
Tough question and I guess it really depends. I’m not familiar with the Castro lineage forms so can’t really give an opinion.

When you say “traditional” do you mean Japanese/Okinawan? Because Chinese martial arts are also traditional and have their forms, unless you mean Modern Wushu, the flowery, acrobatic performance art created by the a communist government in the 1950s and deliberately separated from the traditional fighting methods? If Modern Wushu is the other option, then no, you should not be competing in that grouping. It is its own animal, with compulsory forms and such.

If the choices are traditional Chinese or traditional Japanese/Okinawan, then It is a tougher call.

If the choice is traditional (Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Chinese, etc.) vs. Modern Wushu, then definitely traditional.
 
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Flying Crane

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Traditional may suit Kenpo better.

Both Tony's and Gary's Kenpo schools taught this CMA form - the tiger and crane form.

Ok, you are muddying the waters. Early Parker kenpo included Tige/crane which was lifted from Hung Gar, Parker dropped it, but the Tracy lineage kept it. But it is out of place in kenpo, it does not belong there. There is a whole history there.

At any rate, none of this has anything to do with Castro kenpo. It traces back to William Chow, but NOT through Ed Parker. It is not the same thing.
 

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Ok, you are muddying the waters. Early Parker kenpo included Tige/crane which was lifted from Hung Gar, Parker dropped it, but the Tracy lineage kept it. But it is out of place in kenpo, it does not belong there. There is a whole history there.

At any rate, none of this has anything to do with Castro kenpo. It traces back to William Chow, but NOT through Ed Parker. It is not the same thing.
Ed Parker couldn't handle Tiger Crane. That's why he dropped it. It's not a style for celebrities. People who train this, for real, don't have breath left over for philosophical commentary, let alone publicity.
 

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Going back to my original question, what do we compete in? Traditional or Chinese? I'm still very lost as to what is the right division for my students to compete in. I can link some videos of some of our katas if it will help.
If I had to make the choice, I would probably say traditional. There's a lot of stuff that could be considered traditional but not be Chinese. I don't know much of Kenpo, but I've had my fill of politics it seems to me that Traditional would be less drama. I think if you listed it as Chinese, then you would probably have a lot of explaining to do.
 

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Ed Parker couldn't handle Tiger Crane. That's why he dropped it. It's not a style for celebrities. People who train this, for real, don't have breath left over for philosophical commentary, let alone publicity.
What the kenpo folks ended up with in their version of that form is an atrocity. They learned it from James Wing Woo (perhaps @Wing Woo Gar could fill in some blanks) but somehow it got all weird. I learned it when I was training Tracy lineage. It is an atrocity. It is better to not be in there.
 

JowGaWolf

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What the kenpo folks ended up with in their version of that form is an atrocity. They learned it from James Wing Woo (perhaps @Wing Woo Gar could fill in some blanks) but somehow it got all weird. I learned it when I was training Tracy lineage. It is an atrocity. It is better to not be in there.
From what I saw, I would have dropped it too. I'm not saying this in a mean way, but if you pull something from another system then it better be good.
 
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shima

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Ok let me help by sharing the YouTube channel (which is not done full speed tournament style flow, but mostly count here for students to reference when practicing after they learn). Pick up the speed a bit and don't count out loud / throw the kicks higher for tournament, and that'll give you an idea. http://youtube.com/c/ImmortalTigerKenpoKarate

The "all key katas" playlist has all our major katas and most of my students would be doing 1-2 of those katas at tournament, especially from the earlier kata's as my highest rank so far is only a green belt, a bunch of blue belts, and then the rest are white/yellow/orange/purple.
 
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shima

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If I had to make the choice, I would probably say traditional. There's a lot of stuff that could be considered traditional but not be Chinese. I don't know much of Kenpo, but I've had my fill of politics it seems to me that Traditional would be less drama. I think if you listed it as Chinese, then you would probably have a lot of explaining to do.
That was my initial knee jerk reaction, but my instructor, Master Professor Bill Grossman, said he used to compete in the Chinese soft forms division before they created specific kenpo divisions in California... so it really got me questioning things. Our stances are NOT as deep as traditional Japanese/Korean styles... and when we get moving quicker we do have more of a flow compared to Traditional, so he might be onto something.... but we're also not kung fu at the end of the day either.

I also really hate that if we do Chinese for the kids that ALL the 11 and under would all be lumped into one division. My teens and adults it's less of an issue as they have more age chunks for those, but only traditional division has the under 5, 6-7, 8-9, 10-11 divisions for the younger kids broken out... argh decisions.
 

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I don't understand why Kun Fu form is called "soft form"?
Do the following 2 CMA forms look soft?

This guy won the 1st place in 1975 (or 1974?) Bruce Lee Memorial Dallas Karate tournament black belt division. Even by Karate standard, he got highest grade (I recorded this with my 8mm camera).

This is what a CMA form judge may look for - smooth, flexible, fast, powerful, ...


I competed in that tournament too (It was good to be young). :arghh:

 
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shima

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I don't understand why Kun Fu form is called "soft form"?
Do the following 2 CMA forms look soft?
As someone who has competed for a while myself in my earlier days (early 2000's I competed in "traditional" divisions since my first black belt was a shotokan karate variant) and then again later competed in Kenpo/Kajukenbo divisions in California in the earlier 2011-2015 years... I think what I've learned about why it's "soft" has to do w/ the Kung Fu styles being more "fluid" and transitional versus the Japanese "traditional" styles often having very hard "locked" moments/pauses and less of a flow to them.

That said these techniques for Kung Fu and Kenpo will still do much damage despite not looking "hard" ;)

I've only been training in martial arts since 2000 though, and based on your videos Kung Fu Wang I'm pretty sure you've got a couple extra decades of experience on me :)

Here's a video of me competing with the Shaolin Kenpo form "Galloping Horse" at the IKC 50th Anniversary tournament in Long Beach, CA in 2014.

Here was 2 of our star kid students from Bill Grossman's back in 2011 at a tournament:
Side note I'm extremely sad they no longer actively train. The boy stopped sometime after 1st degree black and his younger sister stopped sometime after student black.
 
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shima

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This is the tournament we're going to next month's flyer with the divisions listed out:
  • "Kung Fu / Chinese Forms (soft)" <-- youngest division is 11 years and under all together, then every 2 years, then adult divisions
  • "Creative Forms (with or without music)" <--youngest division is 5 years and under together, then every 2 years, then adult division
  • "Forms (Traditional forms only)" <--youngest division is 5 years and under together, then every 2 years, then adult division
Clearly the first division is not super popular at this circuit of tournaments for the younger kids... and we don't have any flips or fancy acrobatics, so creative forms is probably not the best idea either....
 

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This is the tournament we're going to next month's flyer with the divisions listed out:
  • "Kung Fu / Chinese Forms (soft)" <-- youngest division is 11 years and under all together, then every 2 years, then adult divisions
  • "Creative Forms (with or without music)" <--youngest division is 5 years and under together, then every 2 years, then adult division
  • "Forms (Traditional forms only)" <--youngest division is 5 years and under together, then every 2 years, then adult division
Clearly the first division is not super popular at this circuit of tournaments for the younger kids... and we don't have any flips or fancy acrobatics, so creative forms is probably not the best idea either....
I think this description is unclear. As I stated earlier, kung fu forms are very traditional. So what do they mean with the other category, “Traditional” as something apparently separate from kung fu?

Or by kung fu, do they actually mean Modern Wushu which is definitely not traditional kung fu. Maybe they don’t know they difference? Maybe they think all kung fu is Modern Wushu?

I think you need to get some clarity from them. And kenpo is it’s own thing. It is not kung fu, and it is not Japanese or Okinawan karate, it is not Tae kwon do or tang soo do. So given those choices, I’m not sure what to suggest.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Maybe they think all kung fu is Modern Wushu?
This remind me one year in Dallas Taiji legacy tournament, there was a Baji form division. One guy used a long fist form to compete in that Baji division. I gave him a very low score. The other judges all asked me why. I told them that this guy did not do Baji form. Apparently, all judges (except me) have no idea about what Baji form supposed to look like.

Sometime even the judges may have no idea about what they are judging.
 

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