Second style added to Ju Jitsu

[calipt]

Hi,

I've been doing Ju Jitsu for a few weeks now, with 1 session during the week and 2 during the weekend, which is no problem, but I'm thinking about picking up another style along with it.

Ofcourse the decision, may it be a good or bad thing, to already choose a second style is completely mine, I'm wondering what you guys would recommend. I'm doubting between Aikido, Judo or Karate.

Karate because it helps my offensive skills, Judo because it really helps my defensive skills and techniques identical to Ju Jitsu, or Aikido, something different but fun to do.

My favourite is Karate, but Judo is not far behind.

What are your opinions?

 

[frank raud]

I think you should have a solid understanding of one martial art before you start cross training.

 

[Chris Parker]

Absolutely agreed with Frank there, if you've only been training a few weeks, don't think about training in another system. Each individual system will have their own approach, power source, mechanics, philosophy, and more, and by trying to combine them you are simply adding to confusion rather than improving any skill.

When you say jujutsu, though, what do you mean? Jujutsu is a rather generic term, and can mean anything from old school unarmed or lightly armed combat, grappling-based systems with almost no striking or kicking, striking and kicking based systems, modern unarmed systems (typically grappling based), ground fighting (as in BJJ) and more. In fact, with your list of possible secondary systems, both Judo and Aikido are really just systems of Jujutsu in and of themselves.

If you were to take anything up, I would suggest a compatible weapon system (as that will not have as much interferance as another unarmed system would at this point in time). If you are doing a Japanese system, check out sword arts (such as Iaido, or an old style if there is one nearby), Jodo (stick art), or something similar. Otherwise, I might look to a number of FMA systems, such as Escrima or Arnis for stick and blade work. But I would heartily recommend against another unarmed system for at least 5+ years, until you really have a solid grounding in your current one. By then you may easily find that you simply don't need another system.

 

[repz]

If you want less overlap in techniques, and want to keep it in japan to still be comfortable with the courtesy and japanese terminology, I would go with karate. I am going to mix two styles at one point, and i expect it to be karate and a jujitsu/judo mix (me and you have been in the same boat, I decided on something that has both japanese jujitsu and judo in it). Depending on the karate, it might be all striking, with little overlap with jujitsu like techniques. It will also serve as a good workout, and offer something a little different for nights when you are bored of the same routine from one style (and vice versa).

Jujitsu and judo at the same time would be good if you like all the grappling, and want to further enhance your live-ness training in randori. Also if you jujitsu style doesnt have ground grappling, then judo would be a good fill in. If you want something completely fresh that can offer something completely different, then i wouldnt make this choice (unless you do what I plan to do and find one that mixes both, I get the self defense of knife disarms and other jujitsu techs, with the added benefit of live randori to face off people and work on live reaction).

Aikido might have some overlap, depending on what kind of jujitsu you are doing. Judo and aikido were from jujitsu, they took some of the different aspects of jujitsu and built further into it (like if someone broke away math to focus on multiplication and division, to further expand on this idea, I would say karate is science that may or may not have a bit of math in it). So above holds true as well in aikido, depending on the jujitsu style. Aikido is a great art, it can help with your flaw and technique, but I would imagine serious overlap.

 

[Chris Parker]

The problem isn't really overlap of technique, it's that different arts have different ways of approaching things on a fundamental level (below technique), and to have conflicting approaches can be highly counter-productive when it comes to these arts.

I'll see if I can explain what I mean.

First off, we'll look at what makes a martial art in the first place (I should just have this on file somewhere!). But before we even get to that, I'll point out a few things that a martial art is not. A martial art is not it's techniques. They are an expression of what it really is. A martial art is not something you can consciously call on when needed. It is not trained that way, and it shouldn't be. A martial art is not for self defence. That is not it's aim, despite whatever the instructor advertises it to be. A martial art is not lacking when you really understand it. Limitations only exist in technique, and as I said, that is not what a martial art is.

So what is a martial art? Well, in simple terms, a martial art is a vehicle for passing on particular lessons and approaches designed to instill the particular philosophy that that art espouses. And those lessons are designed not to be instilled in the conscious (thinking) part of your mind, but in the unconscious (automated) part of yourself. And that will remove any belief that you can use X-art for this situation/range, and Y-art for another. The unconscious just doesn't work that way.

This philosophy (the guiding principles behind any martial art, traditional, modern, or sport), combined with the human element (who, where, when, why) is what gives you the techniques that most people think of when they think of a martial art. Essentially, to take an art like Aikido, the philosophy involves not forcing your way upon the world, instead blending with the energies around you. This lends itself to non-resisting actions, circular re-direction, and not causing unnecessary damage to another person. The human element involves Ueshiba Morihei, a rather short, lightly framed man (also of advanced years by the end of Aikido's development), who was Japanese. This lends itself to grappling techniques over striking, use of anothers energy rather than physical strength, lead hand/foot rather than rear hand for power etc. With the philosophy and human element combined within the field of human combative applications you the have Aikido.

So that's (in a very basic way) what a martial art actually is. But the other thing to realise is the way it is taught. Martial arts are taught by repeating certain actions (techniques) over and over again. The common thing you will hear is that this is to ingrain "muscle memory", and that's kinda true, but not really the important part. What you are really doing is imprinting a specific process, essentially the specific philosophy, and the way it is expressed (power source, angles, tension/relaxation methods, ways of moving etc) on your unconscious programming. By repeating it over and over you are telling your unconscious that "this is important", or "this is strong". If you are doing that with two martial arts at the same time, you are essentially telling your unconscious that both are important and both are strong. The problem is that the unconscious will always choose the best of any two options, and if you have opposing martial approaches, only one will come out. If you're lucky.

The worse-case scenario is that the unconscious will actually not think either are strong enough, as there must be some doubt for you to be training more than one, and as a result, nothing will come out. This is where freezing comes into it. Basically, your unconscious, under the stress of a real situation, looks to what it knows to be strong, powerful, and reliable, and if you have constantly undermined your belief in both systems by contradicting them with another one, neither will be considered strong, and there will be nothing there for you to find when you need it, no matter how much time you have trained them.

But there are ways around this. Essentially, it revolves around having one system that is "your" system, and additional knowledge is added to that from the second one. In this case you train for a number of years in a single system, ingraining the one method/philosophy. When you say things like "Karate is more offensive, Judo for defence", I would suggest that you don't quite get either art, as both are defensive and offensive, depending on application, you just need to apply them that way. As I said, a martial art is not limited, only the techniques are. By that I mean that a single martial art, following it's single philosophy, actually provides you with all the answers to any situation you may need to apply it. Karate doesn't really deal much with ground work, but the philosophies can certainly be applied to ground fighting provided you understand them and the environment of the ground well enough. So cross training here can help you understand a different environment, however when you are in a real situation you will still use the dominant system that your unconscious knows and believes is powerful, and that will most likely not be the ground fighting system you have cross trained in.

So the end result is simple. Until you have established a particular system, and gotten a real grounding in it, I highly recommend you don't try more than one system. Particularly if you have just started one. There are too many pitfalls, and really no benefits.

 

[repz]

I am assuming this post was for me? If it is it depends on the students, which becomes a "what if" scenario, which I tend to avoid. It depends on the style, and the person, which I dont see a reason in posting about since I know neither the styles involved, nor the past experience of the poster nor his ability to multi-task if he WERE to be in two styles that have deep conflict (since i can only measure my own ability to soak two arts by my personal experience, which means i am applying my own ability and guessing his), so I avoided adding on if he should or shouldnt mix arts since the poster didnt ask that, nor have do i any info to answer that anyway. Plus, I never disagreed with the above posting about mixing or not mixing arts.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi repz,

No, not just for you, although your post was a bit of a prompt for it.

To be honest, though, no it doesn't really matter on the student, their experience, or anything of the kind, as it doesn't change how these things work. Most people I have met who think they can "get the best of both worlds" by cross-training frankly don't. They will always resort to either one system or the other, or neither (worse-case). As I said, the only way I have seen it work (and the only way it can work, really) is to have a solid base ni one art, and to use the other to expand on the knowledge (knowing a different environment, such as the ground for example), but again there will be the primary art forming all your responces under pressure/stress.

Another member here once asked for my take on a clip of a senior member of his system, who was trying to adapt a technique from one range to another (from standing to the ground), and experienced less-than-successful results. This was no lacking in the art itself, just in the other persons understanding of the ground as an environment. To that end, the member here trains a secondary system for ground work, but the standing system is the primary, and is adapted with the new understanding of the ground.

So it doesn't depend on the style, nor the person, as the concept is going against the very way these things are learnt. For the record, though, I am familiar with a number of systems of Karate, Aikido, modern and classical Jujutsu, BJJ, and a lot more, the poster has written of his experience here and in another thread, so we have a fair bit of information. And although you don't exlicitly disagree, the inference (after two posts saying don't even consider another art if y uare only a few weeks into one) of saying what you would cross train in is an argument of that basic idea. I didn't mean any offence through my post, simply want to clarify why I said what I said, which I felt may have been missed. Cool?

 

[calipt]

Thanks for your replies, a few have strong arguments.
Let me clarify a bit more as I was expecting some of the replies.

Even tho I'm only doing Ju-Jitsu for a few weeks (it's a traditional school where instructors also use influences of other styles), I'm lucky to be well ahead of my 'grade'. My father was a 3rd dan in his younger years and during the last years, he has been teaching me a lot. I always did another sport but now I decided to make a change to something I've always wanted to do in a club.

I understand that you guys are advising me to stick with one style 'til I mastered it. There are a few reasons why I might be deciding to pick a second style. One being my father teaching me for a few years now. Even tho I have to follow grade term restrictions, I'm way ahead. The secon reason being I'm in my late 20's. I fear that when I reach a certain grade (lets say black) in Ju Jitsu, I'm over 30 already and I dont want to start a new style at that age. A third reason being, I only have 1 class during the week, 2 in the weekend. It would be good to have another style fill up my week evenings a bit more.

Even tho you guys can advise me not to, it will still be my decision. Tho I really appreciate your thoughts & concerns about going for two styles this early. But if I decide to go for it, then I'm leaning towards Judo (because I've always loved the throws, locks, the defensive part,...
But also Karate because it helps my offensive side. It's also easier to train at home. As long as the style is complementary with Ju Jitsu.

Aikido has my interest too but not as much as the other two because I think aikido has got nothing more to offer than Ju Jitsu/Judo would already offer me.

Thanks for your replies so far .

 

[Chris Parker]

You know, I'm still going to say it's a bad idea....

Early thirties really isn't that late to start a new system, if you think you may be "past it" by then, I wouldn't say so. I personally also wouldn't call 25 your "late" twenties... believe me, you have more than enough time if you really want to pick up a second one later on.

To fill up your evenings, I would really recommend dedicating it to training in the one system. Too few people seem to do any real home training these days, and it's really essential. So instead of using the free time to get good at the one system, you are planning on adding to the (internal) confusion by adding another one?

You are right, though, it will be your decision. But at least this way you will be aware of the pitfalls of choosing that path. And I'm still not sure what you mean by Karate for offense.... that to me shows a lack of understanding of each of these systems. That's not an attack, just stating that your reasons for going for one system or another may not be entirely supported by the actual systems themselves.

Oh, and this is just me, which system of Jujutsu (and can we use the correct spelling at least while we are in the JMA section?)? Odds are if it's a traditional system I'll have a fair idea of what it entails.

 

[girlbug2]

OP, don't worry about waiting a few years--yes even into your thirties--to learn a new style. The thirties is a very good time to start a martial art. In my observation, yes your twenties are when you are at your physical peak generally speaking. However talk to some older people about this. Most will say that they didn't really start to know their own minds until sometime after the age of thirty. The mental aspect of the arts is by far the bigger portion.

I believe that your thirties are when you will be most appreciative and mentally mature to pick up a second art, while still young and flexible. But of course that will vary a lot from person to person, you may be exceptionally insightful right now for 25.

My art, Krav Maga, is a very physically tough art at any age, and I started in my thirties. It sure whipped me into shape fast! Food for thought--The oldest person in our class, who started around the same time I did, started in his 60s and he is even slightly ahead of me now. It was the first time he ever did martial arts.

 

[calipt]

To be honest, my age is not a concern. Nothing is actually.

I guess I was just thinking a certain way: Ju-Jitsu is not a solo style, it's hard to practice at home. And with Judo having the same techniques for example, I thought it's a good addition to train both styles at once.

But your opinions are valid, I'll have to reconsider

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool. It's just when you list your age (now and in a few years) as your second reason, it makes me think that it is a concern (to you). But really, if nothing is a concern, why even look at another system?

You can certainly train jujutsu solo, this has been done for centuries really. But again, which system? As I said, I will most likely know a number of things about it, if it is a traditional system. And if it is a traditional (read: Japanese) system, can we please use the correct spelling? Jujutsu is correct, jujitsu is not. Jitsu is actually a completely different word to jutsu in Japanese.

 

[repz]

Hi repz,

No, not just for you, although your post was a bit of a prompt for it.

To be honest, though, no it doesn't really matter on the student, their experience, or anything of the kind, as it doesn't change how these things work. Most people I have met who think they can "get the best of both worlds" by cross-training frankly don't. They will always resort to either one system or the other, or neither (worse-case). As I said, the only way I have seen it work (and the only way it can work, really) is to have a solid base ni one art, and to use the other to expand on the knowledge (knowing a different environment, such as the ground for example), but again there will be the primary art forming all your responces under pressure/stress.

Another member here once asked for my take on a clip of a senior member of his system, who was trying to adapt a technique from one range to another (from standing to the ground), and experienced less-than-successful results. This was no lacking in the art itself, just in the other persons understanding of the ground as an environment. To that end, the member here trains a secondary system for ground work, but the standing system is the primary, and is adapted with the new understanding of the ground.

So it doesn't depend on the style, nor the person, as the concept is going against the very way these things are learnt. For the record, though, I am familiar with a number of systems of Karate, Aikido, modern and classical Jujutsu, BJJ, and a lot more, the poster has written of his experience here and in another thread, so we have a fair bit of information. And although you don't exlicitly disagree, the inference (after two posts saying don't even consider another art if y uare only a few weeks into one) of saying what you would cross train in is an argument of that basic idea. I didn't mean any offence through my post, simply want to clarify why I said what I said, which I felt may have been missed. Cool?

Oh, no, its cool. But usually from my experience, I want a question answered and it goes completely off-topic with things I already have considered. I figured that would be the same for other posters.

 

[Chris Parker]

Cool. But if a post starts "I have only been studying a few weeks...." that typically tells me that some things may not be realised. But that's me, I tend to try to look behind the words a fair bit...

 

[Bruno@MT]

OP, don't worry about waiting a few years--yes even into your thirties--to learn a new style. The thirties is a very good time to start a martial art. In my observation, yes your twenties are when you are at your physical peak generally speaking. However talk to some older people about this. Most will say that they didn't really start to know their own minds until sometime after the age of thirty. The mental aspect of the arts is by far the bigger portion.

I believe that your thirties are when you will be most appreciative and mentally mature to pick up a second art, while still young and flexible. But of course that will vary a lot from person to person, you may be exceptionally insightful right now for 25.

+1

At 20, your working life starts, you'll have to work hard to get / keep your job. You'll start living on our own / with a partner, you're buying / renovating / building a house, you are getting kids, ...

I did 3.5 years or jujutsu when I was in college. I had to give it up to avoid burnout on my way to my master degree. When I was working for a year I tried getting back into it. But I had a hard time pulling myself away from the computer where I was always learning new things for hours every day. So I dropped out again after a couple of months.

All those things I mentioned before happened to me between 20 and 30. Januari last year, my youngest daughter was finally sleeping full nights and my wife and I got back some breathing room to do something outside of work and care. The flyer announcing the opening of a traditional jujutsu dojo awakened the itch again and like a moth to a flame I found my way there.

It was only after I agreed to visit the dojo that I learned that initially they taught only ninpo and not yet jujutsu but the practice lesson was great so I stuck with it and the sempai and I are now the senior students. First there was 1 training session per week, then I started training an additional class per week, in private with the sensei so that I could catch up with the sempai. Now we have 2 full classes per week and I also do training on my own outside of that.

Really, sometimes I regret quitting when I was in college, but in all honesty I could not have given it the same attention I do now. And at least now I have some stability in my life that I can rely on. Sure, things can always happen, but barring a miracle I will not have any more kids, the company I work for is stable and close to my home, and we have no plans of moving before the mortgage is paid off.

Also when you are 20, you are full of ideas and potential directions in which you want to go. When you are 30, you usually have a better idea of what you want with your life, what you want to go for, and the means and the stability to get there. As I once remarked to my sensei: youth is wasted on the young

 

[MANOS: THE HANDS OF FATE]

There is a TON of good, sensible advice already dispersed here.

So my different take on the whole two styles at once thing, is to pick up a weapon based style like Escrima or Arnis. It's a insanely, ridiculous amount of fun learning to twirl 2 sticks simultaneously. Also it's so radically different from jujitsu that there's no way you'd be in danger of overlapping, and getting bored from the feeling of familiarity of something like Judo/jujitsu combo.

Learning different things is good!