Schools Not Doing Their Job?

[MJS]

According to this article, the school system is not doing their job, by preparing kids for the real world. Now, I can't speak for every school in the world, but I feel that while it is the job of the schools to teach kids, its also the job of the kids to want to do well, and the parents of the kids, to constantly re-enforce the fact that they need to do well in school, if they want to be able to go out, get a good job and make something of themselves.

The second part of this article caught my eye, when it spoke of parents not wanting to teach math at home. Now, I will admit, that things do change, so what one childs parents learned, may have and probably did change, however, that isn't an excuse or reason to just throw up your hands and give up. There are resources available, such as tutors and i'm sure if the child was having a hard time in a subject, staying after for some assistance from the teacher, is also an option.

So, do you feel that the schools are doing their job or is this just a case of trying to blame someone else, for todays kids not doing well in the education department?

 

[CuongNhuka]

School should teach the following things:

History (local, national, global)
Compartive religion (not "you will be this religion" but explaing what differnit religions are like)
Three languages (English, Spanish, and a third)
How to use a comp. (it is the future after all)
How to do certain things that everyone should know how to do (cook, fill out taxes, get along with people...)
expose students to what differnit jobs would be like
And, foster creativity and a love of learning

Schools now, don't do much of that. Let's be honest, you will probably never need to know how to solve a matrix multiplcation problem unless you go into a specialized feild. So, it's pretty much pointless to teach that kind of skill in high school.

 

[MJS]

School should teach the following things:

1)History (local, national, global)
2)Compartive religion (not "you will be this religion" but explaing what differnit religions are like)
3)languages (English, Spanish, and a third)
4)How to use a comp. (it is the future after all)
5)How to do certain things that everyone should know how to do (cook, fill out taxes, get along with people...)
6)expose students to what differnit jobs would be like
7)And, foster creativity and a love of learning

Schools now, don't do much of that. Let's be honest, you will probably never need to know how to solve a matrix multiplcation problem unless you go into a specialized feild. So, it's pretty much pointless to teach that kind of skill in high school.

Hmm...lets see. I've been out of school since 1991. I'll address your above comments.

1) History is taught.

2) Probably won't get too deep into that unless its a private school.

3) These have been offered for a long time.

4) This has been done and still is.

5) Those classes are offered.

6) Usually in your Jr. or Sr. year, they offer work study programs.

7) Well, this is similar to another discussion we had on schools. It shold be a no-brainer that having at the least, a HS education, is needed if you want to get somewhere in the workplace.

Now, I'll agree with you on your last statement...alot of the stuff that is taught, probably could be substituted with something more applicable to life, unless you're entering a field that will require you to know certain things, ie: a doctor, chemist, etc. Do we use fancy math in everyday life? I know I dont at my job, but I know the basics.

Getting back to your above 7 suggestions. Are you saying that those things are not done in todays schools?

 

[Nolerama]

Do you think school's purpose (at least US public schools) has shifted from institutions of learning, to glorified babysitting?

I do, to an extent. I went to pubic school in the 'burbs, and had an excellent education that prepped me for college...

However, living in the city, there's a public school whose average graduate reading level is still 3rd grade.

It's sad. Teacher's don't get paid well and are not treated professionally, and inner city kids don't have many options outside of school; many have difficult home lives.

There are no academic extra curricular activities, either.

But this particular school has four principals, and a school board that
a few years ago, paid its superintendent way too much in light of the district's lacking performance.

When it comes to city schools (a portion of what's being discussed) I don't think anyone cares anymore. In the event that I have children, and they become school-aged, they're going to private school.

 

[Kacey]

School should teach the following things:

Well, let's take a look at this list, shall we? I teach in a middle school, so my greatest experience is with grades 6-8 (for those from other school systems, that ages 11-14)

History (local, national, global)

6th grade: History, culture, and geography of Canada, and Mexico
7th grade: World geography, including history, culture, economic systems, religions, etc.
8th grade: American History, starting with Columbus and working up through the Constitution; the rest is taught in high school

Compartive religion (not "you will be this religion" but explaing what differnit religions are like)

See above... and remember that lots of parents don't want their kids taught this - we have kids pulled from social studies/history/geography all the time during units that teach comparative religions, because their parents don't want the children "exposed", for a wide variety of reasons.

Three languages (English, Spanish, and a third)

Why 3? And why Spanish? I understand what you're saying - but this is an English-speaking country. As an English-speaking, tax-paying native, I'm tired of my money going to print everything the government produces twice. There was an initiative that made the ballot in Colorado some years ago that would have mandated that all government employees speak, read and write English to a particular standard (I believe it was about 5th grade) so that the government could quit having to publish everything in English and Spanish, with a significant savings in cost - it was voted down as "prejudicial" to native speakers of Spanish. Well, what about people who speak other languages? There are currently 17 languages spoken at my school - and most of them are Asian and Eastern European, such as Czech, although Spanish is also well represented. Should we publish all the school notices in all 17 languages? Teach all 17 languages? It's a slippery slope to start traveling down.

That said, yes, I think that the schools need to teach foreign languages, and I think they need to start in elementary school, when kids learn languages the most easily. But that's hard to do without money, and harder still while attempting to improve reading, writing, math, and science scores on standardized tests as mandated by the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (more commonly known as No Child Left Behind, a great idea that was incredibly badly implemented). Schools have been dropping untested subjects at a furious rate, because too much funding is tied to test scores. I'll get back to this one later.

How to use a comp. (it is the future after all)

Every kid in my middle school takes at least 2 computer classes in 3 years... and very few of them need those classes, given the proliferation of computers. And you still have to know what to do with it - which brings us back to reading, writing and math; if you can't do those things, and worse, don't know when or which things to do, a computer isn't much help.

How to do certain things that everyone should know how to do (cook, fill out taxes, get along with people...)

I learned all these things from my parents - and I believe it is the parents' job to teach life skills. Certainly, the schools can reinforce these things - but these are things kids should learn at home. The schools are already doing too much parenting as it is.

expose students to what differnit jobs would be like

Have you heard of summer jobs? Internships? Take your child to work day? Again - the schools can reinforce these things, and offer opportunities the parents don't have - my school has Career Day every year for the 7th and 8th grade, and had over 50 careers represented this past year, and there are career planning and exploration units included in various classes - but this is a life skill, and life skills should be taught everywhere, by everyone kids come into contact with. It should not be limited to the schools, nor should the schools be the primary source.

And, foster creativity and a love of learning

And we do that as best we can, while still trying to meet the requirements of NCLB. Face it, when your job is on the line unless all the little kiddies (who couldn't care less about the state tests) do well on the test - you're going to teach the things that are on the test. As I said above, NCLB is a law with a great idea that was lost in a crappy implementation. To properly determine if students are making progress, students need to be tested in small bits, regularly, using data from the classroom in the same format in which learning actually takes place - not in one massive annual exam that has no effect on a student's learning, and therefore no incentive to do well. From the article:

Larry Michalec, a computer programmer in San Diego, called the testing a waste of time. "They're standardized and people aren't standardized," he said. "Children get taught to the test. They get taught to take the test. They don't get taught to learn."

And this is the other point. Children are individuals, and standardized testing is not individualized. Colleges have been placing less and less emphasis on SAT and ACT scores for years, because school performance has turned out to be a much better predictor of college success than the college board tests. Yes, there are careers for which you must demonstrate your knowledge via a test for certification purposes (CPAs, lawyers, teachers, etc.) but for most people, once you're out of school, you'll never take another test again - but you will use the skills you were taught to perform your job, and that itself is the real test, whether or not you can do your job properly on a regular basis.

Schools now, don't do much of that.

Your school may not do much of it - at least, your perception is certainly that they don't - but not being at your school, I can't say. Mine does... to those who are paying attention, anyway.

Let's be honest, you will probably never need to know how to solve a matrix multiplcation problem unless you go into a specialized feild. So, it's pretty much pointless to teach that kind of skill in high school.

True, you may not - but the purpose of learning higher math is rarely to be able to do higher math later; the purpose of learning higher math is that it teaches logical processing in a way that nothing else can. But again, that's something that few people understand at the time they're being taught it.

 

[CoryKS]

Math, Science, English, History. And please, for the love of all that is holy, start teaching them Logic and Economics.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Hmm...lets see. I've been out of school since 1991. I'll address your above comments.

1) History is taught.

2) Probably won't get too deep into that unless its a private school.

3) These have been offered for a long time.

4) This has been done and still is.

5) Those classes are offered.

6) Usually in your Jr. or Sr. year, they offer work study programs.

7) Well, this is similar to another discussion we had on schools. It shold be a no-brainer that having at the least, a HS education, is needed if you want to get somewhere in the workplace.

Getting back to your above 7 suggestions. Are you saying that those things are not done in todays schools?

It's complicated.

1) I said Global (is taught), National (is taught, but is mostly "this is why we're the best") and local (is not taught in most schools). I also forgot Government and law (gov mandatory, law optional if offered)

2) Actually, the school district near me (not the one I went to, but near me) does offer an introduction to differnit religions

3) I don't mean offer, I mean they are required. In most Eurpoean and Asian countrys you are required to take 2 or 3 languages, because in the buisness world, you aren't of much use unless you can speak a few languages.

4) Again, I mean require, not offer. The computer classes I took (that were required) were typing classes in middle school. I mean more advanced things using a computer, and making it mandatory.

5) Again, make it required.

6) The work study programs at my school required you to know that is what you wanted to do. You had to have a few requirements (classes) completed, and then the class takes up three periods. So, more then a few students don't really bother. I mean have a class that exposes students to a few differnit career feilds. Like this week, being a cop, next week being a teacher, the week after that being an accountant, and so on. So that the students get a more overall sense of differnit carrers that they may be interested in. And, at the end of the week, a representative from that carrer comes in and hands out info to those that are interested.

7) True, but quite a few people that I know from differnit schools, hated being taught in school, and (because of it) decided that they don't want to go to college. They see it as nothing but work, with there own ideas being stiffled. If you're entire experience with something like education is just one horrid afair after another, you aren't going to want to continue your education?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

According to this article, the school system is not doing their job, by preparing kids for the real world. Now, I can't speak for every school in the world, but I feel that while it is the job of the schools to teach kids, its also the job of the kids to want to do well, and the parents of the kids, to constantly re-enforce the fact that they need to do well in school, if they want to be able to go out, get a good job and make something of themselves.

The second part of this article caught my eye, when it spoke of parents not wanting to teach math at home. Now, I will admit, that things do change, so what one childs parents learned, may have and probably did change, however, that isn't an excuse or reason to just throw up your hands and give up. There are resources available, such as tutors and i'm sure if the child was having a hard time in a subject, staying after for some assistance from the teacher, is also an option.

So, do you feel that the schools are doing their job or is this just a case of trying to blame someone else, for todays kids not doing well in the education department?

I think that parents need to be heavily involved with their childrens education. This is one of the weak links that I see in certain school districts. I know in my childrens school that I am heavily involved and this seems to affect their attention to school details. I notice the exact same from all of the other parents that are heavily involved as well. If parents place a heavy importance on school then more than likely those children will do very well. If they do not however...... well the result can be the opposite.

 

[MJS]

It's complicated.

1) I said Global (is taught), National (is taught, but is mostly "this is why we're the best") and local (is not taught in most schools). I also forgot Government and law (gov mandatory, law optional if offered)

Keep in mind, that many times, the basics are what is taught. You're not going to teach someone in HS, what would be covered in college.

2) Actually, the school district near me (not the one I went to, but near me) does offer an introduction to differnit religions

As Kacey said, many people do not want their child exposed to a religion other than what they are.

3) I don't mean offer, I mean they are required. In most Eurpoean and Asian countrys you are required to take 2 or 3 languages, because in the buisness world, you aren't of much use unless you can speak a few languages.

Languages usually fall under the electives section. I will give this to you though...I do think that being able to speak another language is good to know. I suppose the next question would be, which one?

4) Again, I mean require, not offer. The computer classes I took (that were required) were typing classes in middle school. I mean more advanced things using a computer, and making it mandatory.

See the link at the bottom. This is what is offered at the HS where I went. What you speak of is again, in the electives.

5) Again, make it required.

Again, electives.

6) The work study programs at my school required you to know that is what you wanted to do. You had to have a few requirements (classes) completed, and then the class takes up three periods. So, more then a few students don't really bother. I mean have a class that exposes students to a few differnit career feilds. Like this week, being a cop, next week being a teacher, the week after that being an accountant, and so on. So that the students get a more overall sense of differnit carrers that they may be interested in. And, at the end of the week, a representative from that carrer comes in and hands out info to those that are interested.

Not a bad idea.

7) True, but quite a few people that I know from differnit schools, hated being taught in school, and (because of it) decided that they don't want to go to college. They see it as nothing but work, with there own ideas being stiffled. If you're entire experience with something like education is just one horrid afair after another, you aren't going to want to continue your education?

They hated being taught? How else are you going to learn unless you're taught? Sounds like they have no desire to even be in school to me. And those are the kids that will end up working in BK for their career. Also keep in mind that college isnt for everyone. True, in many jobs today, they want that degree, but there are many jobs that dont require one, some of which pay pretty good too.

http://www.cromwellschools.org/chs/site/files/chscoursestudies08-09-pri.pdf

 

[MJS]

I think that parents need to be heavily involved with their childrens education. This is one of the weak links that I see in certain school districts. I know in my childrens school that I am heavily involved and this seems to affect their attention to school details. I notice the exact same from all of the other parents that are heavily involved as well. If parents place a heavy importance on school then more than likely those children will do very well. If they do not however...... well the result can be the opposite.

I agree. Mine were involved in my education. Afterall, if the child sees that his parents have no interest in their schooling, its showing them that they don't care, so why put any effort into doing well.

 

[Kacey]

I think that parents need to be heavily involved with their childrens education. This is one of the weak links that I see in certain school districts. I know in my childrens school that I am heavily involved and this seems to affect their attention to school details. I notice the exact same from all of the other parents that are heavily involved as well. If parents place a heavy importance on school then more than likely those children will do very well. If they do not however...... well the result can be the opposite.

This is, indeed, the key - I can walk into a classroom and tell, with 95% or better accuracy, whose parents are paying attention to, and putting importance on, the kids' education. They are the students who are attentive, prepared, ask for help, and are generally what students should be. The ones whose parents are not emphasizing education are the opposite. There are a few exceptions, as there are to any rule - but in general, when the parents are involved, the children are better students, and get more out of their education, with much less need for parenting from the schools, as opposed to the reinforcement of core values (rather than the direction instruction) that schools should be doing.

 

[Ray]

Even with parents being heavily involved etc, there are some students who will not learn. Look at George Carlin and his decision to leave school early because he had his life planned.

My youngest son (now 19) decided a long time ago that school was, for the most part, not necessary for his success in life. I hope he is successful in his chosen endeavor. He plays a fantastic classical guitar but has instead decided to make his millions with "death metal": http://www.myspace.com/fallingtograce

 

[CuongNhuka]

They hated being taught? How else are you going to learn unless you're taught? Sounds like they have no desire to even be in school to me. And those are the kids that will end up working in BK for their career. Also keep in mind that college isnt for everyone. True, in many jobs today, they want that degree, but there are many jobs that dont require one, some of which pay pretty good too.

It's more of the way they were taught. That is, "read the first four chapters of the book, and fill out these papers. If you have a question, re-read the book". Many of those teachers (not all, just those kinds of teachers) do very little work. The way they grade there homework as you are either completly right, or completly wrong. There is no "I see your rational here, even if it's not exactly what I wanted". They give tests on scantrons (which those 'fill in a bubble, and a machine will grade it' things).

Also, the teachers who teach that way, don't seem to know the material themselves. A great example was when we were doing Greek Myths in English. The Myths were updated so people could understand them a little bit better. I asked the teacher why the Myths sounded wrong (keep in mind I spent 6-9th grade reading Greek Myths). She said she didn't know. I checked one of the Myths (Pandoras Box), and it was way off. I asked the teacher if we were going to cover the orginal Myth (I had figured out that these were not the orginal, and that she had not mentioned that). She told me she didn't know any, and was pretty sure she wouldn't have time to cover them. She wouldn't even tell the class that these were not the orignal Myths. So, there is quite a few high school students/alumni that think Pandora opened the box with a crow bar (which wasn't invented till centuries later), that she found in a garage (I shouldn't have to say it), and that one of the evils she released was tourism.
I have no problem with an updated version to help people get the Myths, but you should either follow up with the real thing, or mention that these are updates. Again, this is an just an example.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would like to add that in some cases school CAN'T do there job, too much is expected of them by state and federal authorities.

And since I once worked for my states Education Department and while in a meeting with one of the Deputy Commissioners he did say the following

"Teachers should have nothing to do with planning curriculum"

Apparently it is done much better by statistician and PhDs that never taught a day in their life

 

[jks9199]

It's complicated.

1) I said Global (is taught), National (is taught, but is mostly "this is why we're the best") and local (is not taught in most schools). I also forgot Government and law (gov mandatory, law optional if offered)

2) Actually, the school district near me (not the one I went to, but near me) does offer an introduction to differnit religions

3) I don't mean offer, I mean they are required. In most Eurpoean and Asian countrys you are required to take 2 or 3 languages, because in the buisness world, you aren't of much use unless you can speak a few languages.

4) Again, I mean require, not offer. The computer classes I took (that were required) were typing classes in middle school. I mean more advanced things using a computer, and making it mandatory.

5) Again, make it required.

6) The work study programs at my school required you to know that is what you wanted to do. You had to have a few requirements (classes) completed, and then the class takes up three periods. So, more then a few students don't really bother. I mean have a class that exposes students to a few differnit career feilds. Like this week, being a cop, next week being a teacher, the week after that being an accountant, and so on. So that the students get a more overall sense of differnit carrers that they may be interested in. And, at the end of the week, a representative from that carrer comes in and hands out info to those that are interested.

7) True, but quite a few people that I know from differnit schools, hated being taught in school, and (because of it) decided that they don't want to go to college. They see it as nothing but work, with there own ideas being stiffled. If you're entire experience with something like education is just one horrid afair after another, you aren't going to want to continue your education?

Y'know... your post is a frighteningly powerful indictment of your education. Multiple, consistent spelling errors. Grammar problems throughout...

 

[kidswarrior]

That said, yes, I think that the schools need to teach foreign languages, and I think they need to start in elementary school, when kids learn languages the most easily. But that's hard to do without money, and harder still while attempting to improve reading, writing, math, and science scores on standardized tests as mandated by the Elementary and Secondary Education Act (more commonly known as No Child Left Behind, a great idea that was incredibly badly implemented). Schools have been dropping untested subjects at a furious rate, because too much funding is tied to test scores.
_____

And we do that as best we can, while still trying to meet the requirements of NCLB. Face it, when your job is on the line unless all the little kiddies (who couldn't care less about the state tests) do well on the test - you're going to teach the things that are on the test.
_____

And this is the other point. Children are individuals, and standardized testing is not individualized.

A cogent and incisive case for why education is hemorrhaging not just high schoolers (dropouts), but teachers as well. My daughter left after six years in the classroom. And I'm pulling the plug as soon as possible myself. It's not really education anymore, it's standardization, testing to make sure the standardization 'took', and separating as *lost merchandise* those who don't fit on the conveyor belt anymore.

 

[jks9199]

It's more of the way they were taught. That is, "read the first four chapters of the book, and fill out these papers. If you have a question, re-read the book". Many of those teachers (not all, just those kinds of teachers) do very little work. The way they grade there homework as you are either completly right, or completly wrong. There is no "I see your rational here, even if it's not exactly what I wanted". They give tests on scantrons (which those 'fill in a bubble, and a machine will grade it' things).

Also, the teachers who teach that way, don't seem to know the material themselves. A great example was when we were doing Greek Myths in English. The Myths were updated so people could understand them a little bit better. I asked the teacher why the Myths sounded wrong (keep in mind I spent 6-9th grade reading Greek Myths). She said she didn't know. I checked one of the Myths (Pandoras Box), and it was way off. I asked the teacher if we were going to cover the orginal Myth (I had figured out that these were not the orginal, and that she had not mentioned that). She told me she didn't know any, and was pretty sure she wouldn't have time to cover them. She wouldn't even tell the class that these were not the orignal Myths. So, there is quite a few high school students/alumni that think Pandora opened the box with a crow bar (which wasn't invented till centuries later), that she found in a garage (I shouldn't have to say it), and that one of the evils she released was tourism.
I have no problem with an updated version to help people get the Myths, but you should either follow up with the real thing, or mention that these are updates. Again, this is an just an example.

First -- as the son of a teacher, I'm going to have to say that I suspect you have little knowledge of what a teacher really does. Or how much work they put into it. There's a lot of work that goes into teaching that you simply don't see.

Second -- just exactly when do you think the lever (a crowbar is just a lever) was invented? It's one of the earliest simple tools...

 

[CuongNhuka]

Y'know... your post is a frighteningly powerful indictment of your education. Multiple, consistent spelling errors. Grammar problems throughout...

I'm curious what you're trying to say here. Spelling and grammar is a skill, and little else. It is also, by no means an indication of intelligence/education. If that is the route you were going down.

Also, when the book says says "she went into the garage and grabbed a crowbar" I don't think it meant just any old lever, it is rather specific to that kind of lever, which wasn't used (as a term to describe a such a lever) until around the year 1400. Which is far after the end of Greek Civilization.

 

[Cryozombie]

Also, when the book says says "she went into the garage and grabbed a crowbar" I don't think it meant just any old lever, it is rather specific to that kind of lever, which wasn't used (as a term to describe a such a lever) until around the year 1400. Which is far after the end of Greek Civilization.

Neverminding the fact ancient Greeks didnt have garages either...

 

[CuongNhuka]

Neverminding the fact ancient Greeks didnt have garages either...

Actually, in my intial post were I mentioned this incident, I did imply that same fact. JKS seems to have decided to ignore every part of my post up until the part were a crowbar is a kind of lever.