Sakki test with live blade

[Bruno@MT]

I read in the gebukan documentation that the jun-shihan and shihan sakki tests are performed with a live blade. So the obvious question is: does failing the test mean you get killed?

I can imagine this being true in feudal times when death by sword was perhaps not so big an issue. But in modern days it would be problematic I guess.

And if soke holds the cut before making contact, can the cut itself be considered a killing blow or not? What I am trying to say is that with a shinai, the person performing the cut can execute a cut with the intent to kill, because the shinai makes it safe enough. But with a blade this is not the case if death is to be prevented.

I know it is hardly a practical concern to me, but after reading the grading protocols I started thinking about it because renshi and kyoshi tests are done with a shinai, and jun-shihan and shihan test are done with a katana.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Interesting!

 

[Tez3]

I read in the gebukan documentation that the jun-shihan and shihan sakki tests are performed with a live blade. So the obvious question is: does failing the test mean you get killed?

I can imagine this being true in feudal times when death by sword was perhaps not so big an issue. But in modern days it would be problematic I guess.

And if soke holds the cut before making contact, can the cut itself be considered a killing blow or not? What I am trying to say is that with a shinai, the person performing the cut can execute a cut with the intent to kill, because the shinai makes it safe enough. But with a blade this is not the case if death is to be prevented.

I know it is hardly a practical concern to me, but after reading the grading protocols I started thinking about it because renshi and kyoshi tests are done with a shinai, and jun-shihan and shihan test are done with a katana.

I imagine it was a bit of a problem to the chap being killed.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I imagine it was a bit of a problem to the chap being killed.

Well,... Yes. But he was in no position to complain anymore.

Dueling and and death were not unheard of in martial arts. People like Musashi (but also in unarmed combat) fought duels to the death, and everybody accepted that death could happen. There would be no public outcry.

But if Tanemura sensei would behead someone sitting for the jun-shihan test, then there would be an outcry, and it would probably make the global news.
EDIT: Not saying that it would be unexpected. after all, it is a master level test to judge whether you can sense a real killing stroke. but such a thing is not really culturally acceptable anymore, although I don't know what the japanese think of this. Hence my question.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I don't know what the japanese think of this.

Average Japanese thinks of it same as American thinks of it. Baka(stupid).

I suppose a Japanese Budoka might see merit in it but average Japanese think crazy or stupid. Maybe if they saw it being done and the guy avoided it maybe Sugoi(wow/amazing)

You could always ask one of the Shihan such as Mr.Wright or Mr.Ron since they speak english and are the highest ranking non Japanese.

 

[Katsujin-ken]

This is a description of the jun-shihan test, with italics to highlight some points of emphasis.

TEST FOR JUN-SHIHAN:

In a Dojo or other room, the examinee waits honorably in meditation. The Soshi, bearing a Shinken (real sword), comes from behind and assumes Daijodan-no-Kamae or Nukiuchi-Dogiri-no-Kamae. Silently, the Soshi attacks emitting the deadly cutting Ki. Those who evade this attack with a collected body and spirit pass the test. In ancient times, this test sometimes ended in a fatality, but what is important is to disregard the danger. Presently, the Soshi is able to determine whether an examinee will pass or fail before the test is done.

To me, it certainly sounds like this is not the kind of test you can just sign up for, nor will be permitted to take unless Tanemura Soke is confident you are ready to do so.

For Shihan testing, it becomes more precarious, as one must evade two cuts (one vertical, one horizontal). Moreover, Tanemura Soke will NOT emit Sakki. Again, I would imagine candidates for this test would be pre-selected based on Tanemura Soke's discernment that they will pass.

 

[Aiki Lee]

To me, it certainly sounds like this is not the kind of test you can just sign up for, nor will be permitted to take unless Tanemura Soke is confident you are ready to do so. .

Yes it seems like this is a test that Tanemura would have to be 100% sure that the testee would pass. Even if he failed, I'm sure the sword weilder would stop just before finishing the cut.

Tanemura Soke will NOT emit Sakki. Again, I would imagine candidates for this test would be pre-selected based on Tanemura Soke's discernment that they will pass.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Does tanemura not administer the test? Or does he do it but doesn't send killing intent. If the second statement is true how would the testee be able to detect the danger?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Did Tanermura Sensei sit a live sword test with Hatsumi Sensei or one of his other teacher's?

 

[arnisador]

Live sword test? I'm not buying it. The legal dangers are too great.

 

[redantstyle]

Presently, the Soshi is able to determine whether an examinee will pass or fail before the test is done.

how's that?

 

[Katsujin-ken]

Yes it seems like this is a test that Tanemura would have to be 100% sure that the testee would pass. Even if he failed, I'm sure the sword weilder would stop just before finishing the cut.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Does tanemura not administer the test? Or does he do it but doesn't send killing intent. If the second statement is true how would the testee be able to detect the danger?

For the Shihan test (as distinct from Jun-Shihan), Tanemura Soke will attack, yet not emit or demonstrate sakki. My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that one must then sense, as it were, the spirit, of the sword. As well, this test, as with each mastership test, becomes more about the spiritual growth and progression of the individual more than just about physical technique alone.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

If I recall correctly, the Bujinkan Godan test used to be done with a live blade, there are certainly photos of people such as Charles Daniel undergoing the test against a metal blade. There are also pictures of a number of Japanese Shihan evading metal blades from behind, and Hatsumi was tested by Takamatsu with a live blade.

The idea is that the tester knows beforehand whether or not the student will pass, or they won't administer the test. If we look at these arts as being true old survival systems, designed to protect your life against real attacks, the application of techniques against real weapons should be expected... but you don't start out that way. In modern armies, would you expect the soldiers to train exclusively with blanks and fake bayonets, or would you want them to get used to the real thing?

It was changed in the Bujinkan to Shinai rather than Shinken mainly to avoid potential injury with the larger numbers of students testing.

The only other thing I'll say here is that I said "metal blades". Without having been there and seen the weapons myself, I cannot categorically state that they are not Iaito or Mugito, but the term "live blade" has always been used.

 

[Monadnock]

Are there any records of the test being applied before Takamatsu?

 

[Chris Parker]

Well, the scrolls for Togakure Ryu have a number of Sakki Jutsu kata, each involving a slightly different evasion of a real sword. Most involve moving away before the attacker is close enough, but one is the well-known Bujinkan Godan test (Seiza, Uke in Daijodan, Shomen Giri, Zenpo Kaiten to evade). And the Gyokko Ryu has a couple of techniques for evading (and dealing with) a short sword attack from behind. Then the Shinden Fudo Ryu (Dakentaijutsu) has a seated evasion and technique against a downward sword cut from behind. So it exists in the various scrolls from a number of Ryuha.

As for it being used as a test, it has been said that only the Soke of Togakure Ryu can administer it as a test, if anyone else does, they will "suffer the wrath of Heaven". I haven't seen any documentation or heard any stories about Toda Sensei testing in this way, but it wld not entirely surprise me if he did.

 

[Aiki Lee]

As for it being used as a test, it has been said that only the Soke of Togakure Ryu can administer it as a test, if anyone else does, they will "suffer the wrath of Heaven".

well that sounds...ominous.

Two questions:

I always thought this test was about sensing the killing intention of the person behind the blade, hence that is why you get the signal to move. If there was no killing intent there would be no reason why your body should signal for you to get out of the way?

Mr. Parker: Are you getting all this information from books or from oral teachings? If there are books with this knowledge in them I would definitely like to know if I could locate them somewhere.

 

[Cryozombie]

if anyone else does, they will "suffer the wrath of Heaven".

I hate that. Rikkimaru comes and sits on the roof, and the samurai guards never look up but just stare at a blank wall... then they eat poison rice that sits on ground for no reason.

I hate suffering thru Wrath of Heaven. I'd rather Suffer thru Tenchu Z.

 

[Chris Parker]

well that sounds...ominous.

Two questions:

I always thought this test was about sensing the killing intention of the person behind the blade, hence that is why you get the signal to move. If there was no killing intent there would be no reason why your body should signal for you to get out of the way?

Mr. Parker: Are you getting all this information from books or from oral teachings? If there are books with this knowledge in them I would definitely like to know if I could locate them somewhere.

There are a number of explanations I have heard for how/why sensing an unseen attack works. Without getting into the details of them, the easiest way to experience or learn the skill is against a commited, directed intention, and Sakki ("killing energy") immediately kicks your natural survival instincts into the mix. So what you are doing in this test is accessing the deeper, natural instict you possess to stay alive, and allowing your (conscious) mind to get out of the way so your body can do what it needs in order to survive.

This skill is not unique to Ninjutsu, or the Martial Arts of Japan. Combat veterans often develop the same talent, simply surviving a number of life-threatening encounters can help you tap into your primal survival skills. But the bullets flying at you don't have any intention. And the person who fired them may have no real intention, or at least, none directed towards you. And yet you still get out of the way. So the Sakki aspect is crucial, particularly if something like a Shinai is used, but when the skill is truly developed, you should be able to evade a lethal threat even when no true "killing intention" is present. Think of a runaway car, or bus. It doesn't want to hit you, the driver (if there is one) probably doesn't want to hit you. But that doesn't make it any better when you get hit, so I would prefer to be able to get out of the way anyway.

And as for how I learned, and continue to learn, every source I can find. Look to the books others (and myself) have recommended, there is a good post from Saitama on the Original Samurai Arts thread...

Oh, and Cryo, hey, I didn't write the scroll... but it's not uncommon for these types of things to be written. When becoming amember of schools such as the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, or the Kashima Shinryu, you undertake a Blood Oath, cutting your finger in a specific place to sign a contract with your own blood. The contract often states that you subject yourself to various gruesome punishments from a variety of Deities should you break your covenant with the school, or reveal the schools secrets. And that's retribution from Oni and Tengu (Demons), so I'll take my chances with Heaven...

 

[terryl965]

I read in the gebukan documentation that the jun-shihan and shihan sakki tests are performed with a live blade. So the obvious question is: does failing the test mean you get killed?

I can imagine this being true in feudal times when death by sword was perhaps not so big an issue. But in modern days it would be problematic I guess.

And if soke holds the cut before making contact, can the cut itself be considered a killing blow or not? What I am trying to say is that with a shinai, the person performing the cut can execute a cut with the intent to kill, because the shinai makes it safe enough. But with a blade this is not the case if death is to be prevented.

I know it is hardly a practical concern to me, but after reading the grading protocols I started thinking about it because renshi and kyoshi tests are done with a shinai, and jun-shihan and shihan test are done with a katana.

This is interesting, does anyone have any video of this being done with a live blade?

 

[redantstyle]

But the bullets flying at you don't have any intention. And the person who fired them may have no real intention, or at least, none directed towards you. And yet you still get out of the way.

now people are dodging bullets?

 

[Bruno@MT]

This is interesting, does anyone have any video of this being done with a live blade?

According to the genbukan web page, there are no shihan, and only 8 (?) jun-shihan. So the shihan test has never been done before, unless the webpage is out of date (which happens).

And only (jun) shihan and soke are present, so I don't think it has been filmed.