Rote or flow training...

[jks9199]

The discussion about the X-kans and their training methods got me thinking... It's also a reflection of a question a student asked me.

When I train a new student, they learn fairly rigidly, "by-the-numbers" or what some have called A-B-C training. Responses are shaped and guided, and there's not a lot of room for deviation. So, if the technique is "full step, rising block, punch" -- that's what I expect to see.

But as a student's training progresses, they get more freedom to evolve their own responses, or to react more freely. So, now, they might be able to substitute a side block for the rising block, or a kick for the punch, or omit the block and move into a throw. We shift from the specific technique to the underlying principles.

One thing I've seen happen a lot is someone trying to move to principles before they've built that underlying structure of muscle memory and correct movement -- or at least without developing the intrinsic structure. It's been said that you need to learn the rules before you can break them about a lot of endeavors. I'll probably botch this analogy, but unless a musician has some pretty solid chops in the first place -- they're going to be very limited in how well or how much they can improvise. I might learn to play a particular song on a guitar by memory -- but if I don't learn the actual chords, fingerings, and progressions, all I'll be able to do is play THAT song. No matter how perfectly I play that song -- if I sit in with some real musicians, I'll be stuck.

So... what do you think?

 

[seasoned]

The discussion about the X-kans and their training methods got me thinking... It's also a reflection of a question a student asked me.

When I train a new student, they learn fairly rigidly, "by-the-numbers" or what some have called A-B-C training. Responses are shaped and guided, and there's not a lot of room for deviation. So, if the technique is "full step, rising block, punch" -- that's what I expect to see.

But as a student's training progresses, they get more freedom to evolve their own responses, or to react more freely. So, now, they might be able to substitute a side block for the rising block, or a kick for the punch, or omit the block and move into a throw. We shift from the specific technique to the underlying principles.

One thing I've seen happen a lot is someone trying to move to principles before they've built that underlying structure of muscle memory and correct movement -- or at least without developing the intrinsic structure. It's been said that you need to learn the rules before you can break them about a lot of endeavors. I'll probably botch this analogy, but unless a musician has some pretty solid chops in the first place -- they're going to be very limited in how well or how much they can improvise. I might learn to play a particular song on a guitar by memory -- but if I don't learn the actual chords, fingerings, and progressions, all I'll be able to do is play THAT song. No matter how perfectly I play that song -- if I sit in with some real musicians, I'll be stuck.

So... what do you think?

I think you have described exactly what kata was intended to do. What has happened is, reality based systems have excluded kata "the base" and jumped right into specific techniques.
Your analogy is right on, out of the play book of old school, 60s vintage. The way I was taught and teach today is exactly the way you say.
I feel that students are pushed along way to fast, especially if they show the least bit of talent. White belt to black belt is the stage as you say to learn the "actual chords" and build the foundation of your given system. Black belt and beyond is the time to become the artist. This is a much slower way of learning, but in the long run it paves the way to unlimited options.

 

[jda]

Well put. That is the reason we learn the basics and practice them time and again. Without a solid foundation we have nothing. Thank you for the musician analogy--makes perfect sense to me.
Jim

 

[jthomas1600]

Great post. I liked your music analogy. I would add a little to it though. Learning the chords, progressions and scales will certainly make you a better musician than just memorizing a few songs. But it's possible to learn those things (chords etc) by simple memorization as well. Unless you understand a little bit of why things are the way they are you still will be somewhat limited in your ability to improvise and or create on your own. I would guess it's about the same with martial arts. Teaching the student all of the basic motions before having them improvise certainly seems better than improvisation right off the bat because they at least have more tools available and they know how to use the tools correctly right? But if they understand why a particular block or combination works well against a particular attack I would think then it would be easier for them to pick a suitable substitute when they are improvising. I don't know if that made much sense. I guess what I'm saying is from a students perspective I really appreciate it and find it helpful when there's really thorough explanations as to why certain things work and others won't..

 

[jks9199]

I don't know enough about music beyond the surface to do more with that analogy. It's easy to be tempted to give the student too much of an explanation, and a lot of students think they need more explanation than they do. Don Roley wrote an account of his training, where one of his instructors told him to put his foot "here, like this..." and when Don asked why, the answer was "because that's where your foot needs to be." In time... he understood that his foot needed to be there, because that's the right place for his foot to be.

I know, clear as mud, huh?

With the exception of a rare handful of natural talents, most of us need to start with fairly structured training. We need to learn and integrate the postures and principles through direct models and lots of practice. We need to practice the motions, we need to practice them as almost staged reactions, and we need to practice adapting them as situations change. Through that practice, we discover the underlying principles and they become a part of us... until they disappear into us and we simply do things.

I'm not sure that is any clearer. Let me try an example. One basic response to a simple direct punch to your face is to move forward, off the line of the attack, block the punch, and then counter punch. I think most systems have some variant of this, no? The first time it's taught, that's exactly how you do it: step by step, exactly as described. But, as you practice, you begin to figure out that the real key isn't the block, or the counter-punch -- it's the evasion and movement to a position where the attack fails, and you have a variety of options once you're in that safe place. There's even deeper understandings -- but you can't reach that point till you can do the simple, direct motion.

The problem that I've seen happen too often is that people get exposed to the end -- and don't understand the hard work to get there. Stance is another example. We learn strong, rigid stances as a base for power. But with time and practice, the real elements that generate the power and structure disappear and the stances don't seem so rigid and strong -- but you're unmovable when you chose to be.

 

[jthomas1600]

Yeah, I completely agree with you. I guess what I might be getting at (and just not saying well) is kind of an intermediate step. You learn A, B, C and you do it until it becomes a part of you and as you said, starts to feel natural and kind of reveal it's self so to speak. But after you realize evading the punch is the key and then you have many options...the deeper your understanding of the "why" certain techniques work in certain situations the better equipped you will be to reach the final stage where you can improvise freely. Of course my response here could also just be a result of my preferred method of learning and what works best for me.

 

[seasoned]

"You mention a basic response to a simple direct punch".
At first I found this to be very unnatural, with stepping back away from the attack to be the norm. But, once I discovered through repetition of kata that this was the superior move, it then became my new natural move.
Your analogy of music cords is spot on as exampled by my daughter who began piano at the age of 5yrs. She hated the repetition of scales over and over for many years, but found that the base she built, opened many doors to a variety of different music. Now at the age of 30 she will admit that the mundane is what brought her to where she is today.

 

[jks9199]

"You mention a basic response to a simple direct punch".
At first I found this to be very unnatural, with stepping back away from the attack to be the norm. But, once I discovered through repetition of kata that this was the superior move, it then became my new natural move.
Your analogy of music cords is spot on as exampled by my daughter who began piano at the age of 5yrs. She hated the repetition of scales over and over for many years, but found that the base she built, opened many doors to a variety of different music. Now at the age of 30 she will admit that the mundane is what brought her to where she is today.

I said basic -- not easy or natural! I've found many, many times that what seems the most simple or easy or natural reaction isn't necessarily the safest or most effective.

 

[Jenna]

"You mention a basic response to a simple direct punch".
At first I found this to be very unnatural, with stepping back away from the attack to be the norm.

I think that is an interesting point also. In the beginning many techniques are counter-intuitive: stepping into attacks, going with opponent's strike etc. Drilling correct reception of these attacks is imperative otherwise we will be misplaced to deploy our own technique and similarly backfooted for any follow ups.

I think the idea of free-flowing execution of multiple techniques is essential to be able to fight and/or defend with any level of competence. However, I think this only comes with extremely well-drilled knowledge of the fundamentals. I think these fundamentals need to be so well drilled that their recall is instant. A questioning mind is always a good thing and but with it in the beginning must come the acceptance that the reasons for the construction of some techniques may not be obvious until later.

I appreciate the music analogy. Natural born geniuses can compose with little assistance. Some others can play for fun knowing only a few chord constructions or licks. And the point here is that if that is what they want to do, then that is perfectly fine. If on the other hand, they seek to master their instrument, they absolutely must learn the fundamentals of not only chord structures and but scales, chord progressions and a myriad other notions. Jazz improvisers and metal leads in particular can give a misleading impression of how slick and easy their flow really is. Same with martial art.

To confuse things more I would add another analogy. I would liken rote-style by-the-numbers MA training to completing a jigsaw puzzle without the entire cover of the box. You might only be given a part of the cover. You might get just a corner etc. This, initially might seem like an unacceptably difficult task however it is not. Provided you know the core principles: that pieces must match in shape and colour; that straight edged pieces denote the picture's boundary etc. then the puzzle can be completed quite easily. In TIME. Without those core principles (we would need to imagine a chimp or something!), eventually a picture of some kind might be formed and but it would be far from the most pleasing picture. The question then becomes, why am I not permitted to see the whole picture? I think there would be many clever replies to this. I like the idea that, when it is finally completed, your picture will be unique and not look the same as mine.

 

[chinto]

ok you are a new student. Nothing is natural feeling, and there is no flow, and you do not have a clue... enter kata. You learn the muscle memory and the foot work and slowly, and perhaps with out consciously knowing it, you start to learn the principles underlying the art. Over time you learn the kata and then begin to make it yours. You then have "it" happen once in a while in sparing. You do not think at all, the technique just happens. then 'it' starts to happen a little more often when you least expect, and you find that you put techniques together with out conscious thought from different kata. It works! and you begin to do it more often and over time you have a flow, and its yours. its NOT A+B+C +X = but your own combination, your own body reacting and flowing as you start to 'fight on instinct"... But KATA is key to really learning to do that well. I think it leads to that faster then just drilling a few techniques hear and there over and over and sparring a lot. but then there are a lot of people who will disagree with me.. to each his or her own..

But the old masters, of Kung Fu, and Karate, and some other systems have used kata for century's for a reason. I find the idea that some one with say 4 years of training thinking that they know more then the old Masters of many arts over the century's .. ridiculous.

 

[Carol]

I think the parallel to music is an excellent analogy. When I was studying music in college, one of many sayings that we heard was "You have to know the rules before you can break 'em."

 

[Kurai]

jks9199 - I think your analogy is spot on. I'm a member in the Bujinkan. I constantly review myself to become better. I feel that I can never, ever, be too good to practice my basics. On the occasions that I teach, I find myself notoriously nit-picky about basics. Timing, angle, distance, kihon, etc. I find myself to be the A-B-C type (such as my instructors), and value the understanding of the basics. Good basics form a solid foundation from which to work from. The chords, progression, theory, etc, to make beautiful (if painful) music.

 

[chinto]

I do agree that music or military science are good analogy's, in both cases you do need to know the rules before you can brake them.