repetition of isolated movements for power

[windwalker099]

Yang style Tai Chi inheritor Fu Shengyuan instructs his son in practicing

Interesting video highlighting requirements of yang style practice.

 

[Flying Crane]

I don’t know how to develop it without isolated repetition. I think that needs to be part of the process.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Karate commonly has kihon, basic techniques that are drilled in almost every class, individually or in two move combos such as block-punch combos and various kicks. This repetitive drilling provides increased ability in speed, power, body movement and mechanics allowing them to be applied effectively upon an opponent.

Roughly half the movements in kata are comprised of these basic techniques. The other half however are seldom if ever drilled, being practiced only while performing the kata. These are mostly (but not exclusively) associated with grappling/joint techniques. They are seen as more esoteric and are confined to kata and not seen as kihon.

Maybe during the modern evolution of karate, their meaning was lost or deemed too dangerous for the public, so over time were not stressed during class drilling. Not much is known about how karate was taught in old Okinawa. In any event, IMO there is no good reason not to isolate them for drilling outside of kata. And not only drilled but be practiced for application with partners (as they originally were) just as kihon is. While many of these moves are counters to various grabs, some are counters to striking attacks and so can even be used in sparring.

I am a proponent of re-integrating the concepts of kihon, kata, and kumite rather than seeing them as three distinct unrelated things to be kept in their separate boxes.

 

[Same Trick]

Is the YouTube video same as the other linked video( rooster stand on one leg) ?
What about the “power” reference in the headline? I see instructions on body mechanic to move through the posture, and a simple knee to groin application of the posture without any “power” applied(doesn’t need much anyway to make the jewels feel uncomfortable)

 

[Fungus]

What about the “power” reference in the headline?

Something that i find helpful is to train isolated combinations as "single movements" repetadly. This really helped with power as well. I mostly do this on the heavy bag though. The benefit I found, that really improves energy generatation, is that instead of considering a combo as several technqiues in sequence, that reset to the same state, you can use the momentum of hte reset to load the next technique, but it requires that you train repeteadly the combination itself with timing. Timing isnt' only about the opponent, but the timiing of when to retract and launch next technique so that the reused.

I have tried to think about this with power striking combos, as well as consequititve kicks. once I get the rythm or if, it greatly improves both speed of the whole combo + power.

There is huge difference between training single power hooks, and then just make two in succession vs training the double hook (say like Tyson did it). Before the first hook lands, you prepar both on mind and body already loading and firing othe next hook, you get significantly more power.

For me as having thought about this, I see it relating to TIMING variious internal rebounds in your body, when retracting and reloading. And your exact rythm is individual and depends on limb mass and muscle force. Same with footwork, before the foot lands, you prepare and reload the next move, to use the rebound momentum to speed up the next week.

Its a bodyrythm, that gets lost if you do techniques one by one, and pause them, the we often do in kihon (to mark the end of the technqiue).

 

[windwalker099]

Is the YouTube video same as the other linked video( rooster stand on one leg) ?
What about the “power” reference in the headline? I see instructions on body mechanic to move through the posture, and a simple knee to groin application of the posture without any “power” applied(doesn’t need much anyway to make the jewels feel uncomfortable)

The YouTube video shows the teacher demonstrating single movements with 发劲 (fājìn)… while the other clip — which works in China — shows him teaching his son, focusing more on structure and internal coordination.

Personally, I don’t fully agree with the approach in the first clip. The emphasis seems too much on the “fa”, expressed through rotation and visible body mechanics — rather than the internal process that supports it. A boxer’s shadowboxing might develop more practical timing and readiness.

It might be more helpful to look at what is being trained — things like 意 (yì, intent), 气 (qì, energy), and 神 (shén, spirit) — developed through proper alignment (身法), timing, and awareness.

The second video shows more of that… things like 开合 (kāi hé, opening and closing), balance, and internal connection — which are easy to overlook if one’s only watching for impact.

 

[Same Trick]

The YouTube video shows the teacher demonstrating single movements with 发劲 (fājìn)… while the other clip — which works in China — shows him teaching his son, focusing more on structure and internal coordination.

Personally, I don’t fully agree with the approach in the first clip. The emphasis seems too much on the “fa”, expressed through rotation and visible body mechanics — rather than the internal process that supports it. A boxer’s shadowboxing might develop more practical timing and readiness.

It might be more helpful to look at what is being trained — things like 意 (yì, intent), 气 (qì, energy), and 神 (shén, spirit) — developed through proper alignment (身法), timing, and awareness.

The second video shows more of that… things like 开合 (kāi hé, opening and closing), balance, and internal connection — which are easy to overlook if one’s only watching for impact.

Ah, yes I suspected the YouTube vid was different from the other that I can open.
but ive seen some vid of the Fu’s doing fajing stuff in the air and I think it looks awkward. I totally agree about your take on taiji and its internal rather than obvious mechanical approach. So it feels weird and somewhat hurt to the eyes seeing these respected taiji personas trying show taiji as something it’s not(and doing a bad job doing it)
My Yang taiji teacher was a student of Fu Zhongwen, and we never do any falli stuff in thin air, my teachers Taiji applications are more inspired from his tongbeiquan and Shuaijiao expertise, which still is somewhat another thing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My Yang taiji teacher was a student of Fu Zhongwen, and we never do any falli stuff in thin air, my teachers Taiji applications are more inspired from his tongbeiquan and Shuaijiao expertise, which still is somewhat another thing.

Some people think Taiji is a wrestling art because the push hand training. Some people think Taiji is a striking art and include Fajin into it.

If you train

- wrestling art drill, you don't need Fajin. For example, wrestling "arm guiding" doesn't need Fajin.
- striking art drill, you need Fajin. For example, Taiji "advance hammer" needs Fajin.

 

[Appledog]

This was always one of the original methods of training, but today people do not do this because they do not have time and feel it is boring. Also because it has become rare many people who have spent their lives doing forms or otherwise training the modern way don't accept the old ways of doing things. It's interesting to note these could be considered deficiencies of wu de, underlining the point that a high level of wu de is required to master kungfu.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can't train the forms that you have learned from your teacher all your life. Soon or later, you will need to digest the material and get into detail. Partner drills and solo drills training are the only way to achieve that.

Taiji solo training was done in our previous generation.

 

[Same Trick]

The idea that it should take an extreme long and arduous to the point of boredom time of training to gain true gongfu is wrong. If one get the correct teaching, instead of twelve hours a day for 30 years it should take about two hours/day for three years instead.

 

[Appledog]

The idea that it should take an extreme long and arduous to the point of boredom time of training to gain true gongfu is wrong. If one get the correct teaching, instead of twelve hours a day for 30 years it should take about two hours/day for three years instead.

According to whom? No one in the previous generation ever said that.

But if forced, I'd say it's possible to get true gongfu with an abridged training program of 30 minutes to one hour a day (one hour, if you want to train twice a day). In fact, I would say, three sessions of 10 minutes per day could also work, theoretically. If you really wanted to pare things down. It might even be effective for use after the first year.

 

[windwalker099]

The idea that it should take an extreme long and arduous to the point of boredom time of training to gain true gongfu is wrong. If one get the correct teaching, instead of twelve hours a day for 30 years it should take about two hours/day for three years instead.

Three to five years was also the general expectation in my teacher’s group for getting “it.”
In this sense, getting "it" a basic understanding of how, why and what to practice.

That said, my teacher once told me, his teacher had said, “This skill set will take you 20 years to get.”
He smiled and said, “I did it in 15.”


Even the 3–5 year mark requires serious commitment — often at least 3 hours a day.
Not everyone has the same aptitude to reach what they’re aiming for. Everyone’s different.

In my own experience, this is especially true for internal practices, where what’s being developed is subtle and layered. Only after 20+ years of consistent work — on top of earlier training — am I beginning to understand why the time matters.

When I was in Beijing, it was common to see people come either in the morning or the afternoon, practicing according to their interest and level. Rather than a “practice,” it was more like a lifestyle. Not something people did to achieve something, just something they did as part of the culture

 

[isshinryuronin]

Three to five years was also the general expectation in my teacher’s group for getting “it.”
In this sense, getting "it" a basic understanding of how, why and what to practice.

This is in line with the common time frame of 4 yrs to get a black belt in karate based on regular training which in the modern Western world I take to be about 3-4 hours per week. This seems reasonable for the non-professional.

Now, the old masters also said 4 years was needed to become proficient, but they had a different standard. Their regular training meant 10-12 hours per week.

 

[Same Trick]

According to whom? No one in the previous generation ever said that.

But if forced, I'd say it's possible to get true gongfu with an abridged training program of 30 minutes to one hour a day (one hour, if you want to train twice a day). In fact, I would say, three sessions of 10 minutes per day could also work, theoretically. If you really wanted to pare things down. It might even be effective for use after the first year.

According to whom ?” - according to experience of course, and should also be according to pure logic sense. However with much CMA it hides the logic and the essence within the exercises. I this way there are two roads, one is to keep doing the exercises the “common” way and hope for correct achievement, this is the long road.

The other road is getting the additional oral instructions that make immediate correct sense of the exercises that then provide almost immediate results and achievement from the exercises, this is the short road.

As you say, 30 min/day is actually ok for maintenance of the achieved essential core , cause at that level one’s gongfu is with all one’s daily endeavors, basically all one’s waken hours becomes maintenance of one’s gongfu, so in this sense yes we are at the scope of about 12 hours a day practice

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there are two roads, one is to keep doing the exercises the “common” way and hope for correct achievement, this is the long road.

The other road is getting the additional oral instructions that make immediate correct sense of the exercises that then provide almost immediate results and achievement from the exercises, this is the short road.

You are right! There are 2 different roads. But it may not be what you are thinking.

The traditional way - You develop a solid foundation first. You then get into application. PRO: You may have good foundation. CON: You may not be able to fight.

The modern way - You develop application first. You then enhance your foundation along the way. PRO: You have better change to be a good fighter. CON: Your foundation may not be solid.

The question is, you can only compete tournament when you are 20 - 30 years old. In those 10 years, should you compete as many tournaments as you can, or should you spend all your time to build your foundation?

I have learned more than 50 different forms. I told all my students that when they are still young, they should accumulate their fighting experience. After they are 40 years old, I can teach them as many forms as you want to learn. I like the modern way better.

This guy had 20-3 under his belt. Hid form competition score was 7.2 (C average).

 

[Same Trick]

You are right! There are 2 different roads. But it may not be what you are thinking.

The traditional way - You develop a solid foundation first. You then get into application. PRO: You may have good foundation. CON: You may not be able to fight.

The modern way - You develop application first. You then enhance your foundation along the way. PRO: You have better change to be a good fighter. CON: Your foundation may not be solid.

The question is, you can only compete tournament when you are 20 - 30 years old. In those 10 years, should you compete as many tournaments as you can, or should you spend all your time to build your foundation?

I have learned more than 50 different forms. I told all my students that when they are still young, they should accumulate their fighting experience. After they are 40 years old, I can teach them as many forms as you want to learn. I like the modern way better.

This guy had 20-3 under his belt. Hid form competition score was 7.2 (C average).

Sparring/fighting by itself lay a very good foundation, by the game one learn without even thinking about it to properly relax and focus, breath eventually naturally “sink” and senses sharpen, one’s ability to be in the moment of absolute here and now, to be centered is heightened

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sparring/fighting by itself lay a very good foundation, by the game one learn without even thinking about it to properly relax and focus, breath eventually naturally “sink” and senses sharpen, one’s ability to be in the moment of absolute here and now, to be centered is heightened

I had 1 student that trained with me for 8 months. In that 8 months, we met 4 times a week, 2 hours a session. When he came, we put on gloves and fought full contact for 2 hours. I didn't teach him any stance, footwork, stretching, form, drill, punching skill, kicking skill, ... at all.

8 months later, one day he came back and said that what I taught him really work. He got into a fight. In the whole fight, his opponent could not even land a single punch on him.

I have proof that the modern way work. But I don't have any proof that the traditional way work.

 

[Fungus]

About learning anything -in general- I would also say that applications (which in MA means sparring/fightinh for example) often helps build the internal motivation, to further train the details in isolation.

Before one understand in depth and experienced the application, some things appear like dance, where you are ask to mimic visual demonstrations out ot contect. Even if they are explained by words, experiencing them in your own body builds stronger motivation.

And I think the one prerequisite for a succesful student is motivation.