realistic self-defense

[bushidomartialarts]

problem: training for real street self-defense is nigh-impossible.

MMA don't train all the way because it's against the rules, TMA can't train all the way because people would get maimed.

the harder your train, the fewer 'killer shots' you get to use, otherwise your partner has to take three weeks off to heal.

so what's the solution? anybody got some good drills or methods? or even just whacky ideas?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Redman suits. Lots and Lots of padding?

How do the cops and military do it?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i talked with a guy who just got out of the state academy here in oregon.

his hand-to-hand was almost entirely based on getting room enough to draw his weapon. they did mostly situational stuff, making sure you kept your head about you. he was punched and kicked, manhandled, but no 'this guy is gonna tear your head clean off if you don't stop him' stuff.

my brother tells me similar about boot. his trainer's thoughts were that letting a guy get close enough for hand to hand was a waste of a perfectly good $1500 rifle.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

though i imagine special forces do differently. anybody out there can speak to that?

 

[Andrew Green]

Just out of curiosity, what techniques do you see that can't be trained live with proper protective equipment or percautions?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

it's the equipment and precautions that seem like the problem.

i spar with one of my friends every week. we whale on each other, smile and grab a beer after.

one time in class, doing a technique line (no protective gear), he zigged when i zagged. he hit the ground, hard and was dizzy for about five minutes. and then his eye socket swelled until he was seeing double for a couple of days.

that punch wasn't any harder than i've hit him dozens of times. the gear mad a significant difference in the outcome of the punch. and i'm not even getting into joint locks, eye gouges, knees to the groin and all the meaty fun stuff.

is there an direct inverse proportion between training safety and effective application?

 

[Andrew Green]

The balance is always the key, and you're right, protection does get in the way of reality because the true effects of something are lost.

But, you can test whether something "could" work. I can put on safety goggles and mount you to see if it is possible for you to use an eye gouge while I am up there trying to hit you, and to what level of accuracy and power.

Which is another thing that live training teaches, in a fight anything can happen. Either person could win, and has a chance no matter how different the skill levels are, simply because of the unpredictability. A lucky shot, a slip, a mistake, anything can happen and at anytime the fight could go either way.

All we can do is try to change the odds...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

and that's why a handshake and friendly smile are my favorite self-defense techniques.

 

[RoninPimp]

No argument from me with anything posted above. Protective gear means less realism, but what are you going to do? People gotta go to work the next day.

 

[samurai69]

clip of some guys going all out

http://www.fullspeedcomputer.com/Files/CrazyGuy0306.wmv

 

[RoninPimp]

That's not quite all out, but still a great clip. Add a headgear and MMA gloves and they could add light striking which still wouldn't be 100%. The boxing ring is just a soft sided see through small room like that.

 

[MartialIntent]

is there an direct inverse proportion between training safety and effective application?

No doubt whatsoever. With headgear, gloves and ankle pads and a minimum "fairplay" ruleset, we're happy to have sparring partners really put themselves behind their strikes - after all what's the worst that can happen?

All [and it's an unqualified all] defensive techniques have merit. There's a potential place for every single one in a real fight. There's little doubt that most of us on this board have some level of technical proficiency in one or more systems or arts. This is a fact not in dispute and I think we can claim to have pressure tested [hate that term] these techniques per se quite successfully and more than adequately. And while some SD techniques may be more beneficial to us than others when it all kicks off, I believe certain factors represent a greater unknown than the techniques themselves.

For me, the important difference between practise sparring and a fight for keeps is in attitude, fear and mindset or intent and while we can practise all we like in the dojo or ring, or during a less formal session in the back yard with a pal, or even by downing a mouthy youth in the street, we simply cannot adequately replicate our own responses in a down-and-dirty real scrap within these contrived situations. And I think that's the key point - NOT the validity of our techniques.

So the question is: Is there a way around this? Is there a way to train a real-live-fighting mindset that doesn't involve a potential drubbing?

In short no, because if there's any element of "safeness" present whatsoever, the situation ceases to be a polished mirror for the real thing.

My personal theory [proven for me only!!] has come to fruition by reworking some of those life-and-death situations we've all been in: from fights themselves to auto accidents to getting one's head caught between railings as a kid [might not seem life and death with hindsight but relatively speaking it sure was!] to being stuck in a capsized kayak to breaking a major bone etc, etc. These leave a physiological blueprint upon us -and that's just my personal anecdotal experience and not scientific fact btw. But I believe it's possible to contemplate those reactions and consciously adapt and control them. From then this mindset can be capitilized upon by trying out -for example- some "dangerous" sporting activities - take your pick from the dozens out there. As I say, this is a personal theory which I have found to produce consistent gains.

Notwithstanding that, get out there and put yourself about. It can be done. And it goes without saying that I'm advocating nothing here, just talking...

The fact is, it's not necessarily the techniques that need looking at, I believe it's our own subconscious thru mental thru physiological responses that need focus and honing.

Respects!

 

[Rich Parsons]

That's not quite all out, but still a great clip. Add a headgear and MMA gloves and they could add light striking which still wouldn't be 100%. The boxing ring is just a soft sided see through small room like that.

My thoughts as well, Not all out but good see people practicing.

Not sure about the knife stuff, as this can happen to you. But not sure what they were practicing.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

on a similar note...

what do y'all think about using nlp here?

the theory (backed by some study, but not a huge body of work) is that the subconscious mind perceives little or no difference between involved imagination and actual experience. this is why your wife's mad at you all day when she dreams she caught you with another woman.

guided, focused visualization is an everyday tool for top-level athletes and salesmen. has anybody had any experience with applying this tool to self-defense?

deeply imagining (or remembering -- thanks, martialintent) dire peril. is there a qualitative difference between this and imagining successful free throws? or is the difference only quantitative?

 

[Rich Parsons]

on a similar note...

what do y'all think about using nlp here?

the theory (backed by some study, but not a huge body of work) is that the subconscious mind perceives little or no difference between involved imagination and actual experience. this is why your wife's mad at you all day when she dreams she caught you with another woman.

guided, focused visualization is an everyday tool for top-level athletes and salesmen. has anybody had any experience with applying this tool to self-defense?

deeply imagining (or remembering -- thanks, martialintent) dire peril. is there a qualitative difference between this and imagining successful free throws? or is the difference only quantitative?

NLP?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

sorry. NLP=Neuro-Linguistic Programming

it's a fancy way of saying that with practice, you can control your emotional state, calling up the most useful emotional responses on demand.

that's a gross oversimplification, but it's enough for the question at hand.

 

[Rich Parsons]

sorry. NLP=Neuro-Linguistic Programming

it's a fancy way of saying that with practice, you can control your emotional state, calling up the most useful emotional responses on demand.

that's a gross oversimplification, but it's enough for the question at hand.

I can remember a sad time and be sad.

I can remember a happy time and become happier then I am now.

I can remember a time when I was angry, and feel that anger.

The same goes with fear. (* Although how one deals with fear depends upon training. *)

I think about techniques and moves and timing and get better for I work it out in my mind. (* I also do this with work problems as well *).

So my questions is why is it linguistic programing? I could see visual, but why Linguistic? Not to side track the discussion, just trying to better understand.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

you know, i've wondered that myself, but i never asked anybody who knew. if i had to guess, i'd say it has something to do with 'self-talk'. a lot of the people who work with NLP spend a lot of time on 'positive self-talk' and 'negative self-talk'.

just a guess.

what's in a name? a technique by any other name would still kick so much ***....

 

[RoninPimp]

you know, i've wondered that myself, but i never asked anybody who knew. if i had to guess, i'd say it has something to do with 'self-talk'. a lot of the people who work with NLP spend a lot of time on 'positive self-talk' and 'negative self-talk'.

just a guess.

what's in a name? a technique by any other name would still kick so much ***....

-Self talk is a huge part of Sports Psycology. I feel it overlaps a lot with SD psycology. That's one of benefits of combat sport competition. MMA is at the top of that food chain, but the nerves and butterflys before a golden gloves boxing match or BJJ tournament are closely related imo. I would say they are degrees of the same feelings. Competition with unknown oponents is way more nerve racking that sparring with the same old partners. Though not nearly at the level of a violent encounter for real.

 

[frank raud]

I think about techniques and moves and timing and get better for I work it out in my mind. (* I also do this with work problems as well *).

So my questions is why is it linguistic programing? I could see visual, but why Linguistic? Not to side track the discussion, just trying to better understand.

NLP is fairly commonly used amongst the British combatives and RBSD groups. why linguistic? Can't make the whole story in a few sentences, but some of the things they do is have a key word, which is their set off point. It may be in the middle of a sentence, like when I say the word sure, I will strike. So in the statement'are you sure you want to do this?' by the time it registers on the other guy that I didn't finish my sentece, he has been struck multiple times. As well, it is used as a distraction by asking a question completely out of context'does your mother know the Pope?"

Large sections of NLP involve self talk, the little engine that could'I think I can, I think I can", or the Rocky Horror Picture Show(if you are of that age) Don't just dream it, be it.

Some of the better known proponents of NLP for combat use are Marcus wynne, Dennis Martin and Darren Laur.