Rate these Systema players

[SilatFan]

I won’t insult you or your art with asking you to validate your system. I believe that it is a quality art. But one of your peers (who may be here as well) is defending systema on another forum at this time. In the debate these two clips were submitted by a detractor.





http://web.mit.edu/mao/www/TRAD.asf

http://web.mit.edu/mao/www/rus.mpg



Can you please tell me what “level” you would rate the practitioners that are in these clips? In regards to what I’d call the TKD fighter vs. the Systema fighter sparring match – barring the final results - would you say that the Systema fighter fought and moved as is indicative of a Systema practitioner? If not, what did/didn’t he do that would be called “wrong” or not Systema? Would you rate them as advanced, intermediate, beginner, etc, etc, etc……?

 

[Koryu Rich]

Hi all first post in this section,





Can't comment too much only been in the Art for a couple of years....



However to me they seem to be doing an awful lot of excessive movement i.e. the arm waving whilst sparring, now I can see reasons for maybe doing this but it's not how I've been taught. Yes I've been told not to keep stopping and starting and to keep moving but I've no idea what's going on with the arm waving. Sometimes the arms are pretty high up and I would of thought that it interferes with you breathing???



Maybe the movement is involved with trying to match and affect the rhythm of the opponent???





Any Systema folks with more experience got any ideas???

 

[BobP]

The clip I downloaded (rus.mpg) looked to me like the traditional Russian village "wall fight" followed by a couple of guys having a boxing match. So I don't really understand the question.

 

[Furtry]

That was fun, thanks. I've been to a couple of festivals like that.
The one on one bout had a stipulation (I heard in the back ground some one yell) to only use hands. Those people were not experts, but more like enthusiasts. RMA is a cultural art which is influenced by regions and morays and morals of the region, much like Gung Fu in China. That being said the second fight is a couple of mediocre practitioners having a great go. Thanks for the clips I enjoyed them very much.

 

[SilatFan]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[SilatFan]

Furtry,



I had a question which I hoped might be answered in my earlier thread regarding Systema’s structure regarding the upper level players of your art. Does MR have any peers – now or before -that are at or close to his skill level? Like in Silat you had Jim Ingrim, the De Thouras brothers, Willem Reeders, Rudy Tinderlin and Wetzel who were all high level practitioners with some overlap in time and supposedly similar skill sets.



Peace

 

[BobP]

If I may "do a Furtry"....



Yes

 

[Furtry]

If I may "do a Furtry"....



Yes

:lol: Yes, BobP is correct :lol:. MR and VV have chosen to come out into the public eye and IMO grace us, by showing us and teaching us Systema. There are many talented practitioners who keep to them selves as it's not their thing to teach or to pass along the knowledge.

 

[SilatFan]

Excellent!

Please tell me did these men all learn from the same instructor as MR? If not, do you know of any other instructors in the generation prior to MR's?
From what I've read MR's teacher was a former bodyguard for Stalin. Is that correct? Is there any more information on him?

 

[Arthur]

Rate these Systema players

Hard to do since they aren't Systema practitioners. Looks more like folk arts (as already said) and maybe beginner level Borba.

Arthur

 

[Furtry]

Hard to do since they aren't Systema practitioners. Looks more like folk arts (as already said) and maybe beginner level Borba.

Arthur

Good point Arthur. Systema is an amalgamation of all Slavic styles, which were influenced by the geography, morays, and customs of the people. Systema has its roots in Slavic traditions but it is constantly evolving, (with heavy modern military influence) with the roots principles remaining constant to guide the development.

 

[SilatFan]

Originally Posted by Arthur
Hard to do since they aren't Systema practitioners. Looks more like folk arts (as already said) and maybe beginner level Borba.

Arthur

Good point Arthur. Systema is an amalgamation of all Slavic styles, .....

Ok here is where I may be a pest but aren’t these two comments contradictory?

If Systema is a combination of Slavic folk arts and you say that these people are doing Slavic folk arts then where is the difference? Does Systema, for lack of a better phrase, do what these guys do and more?



Do you know if there is somewhere that you can point me to where there is video of Systema practitioners “sparring” in real time against practitioners of other arts?



Additionally I’d like to say thanks for fielding my questions.

 

[BobP]

http://82.68.61.38/throwdown_march_2005/vale_tudo/vtpaul.wmv

 

[SilatFan]

Thanksfor the Clip BobP!



Can you give some background to the video. I'm guessing the guy in black pants is Systema what did the other guy study? He kinda looked like a poor Royce Gracie affiliate

Also, what would you say the Systema practitioner did that demonstrated Systema? I noticed the punch & mostly hands down position. But he seemed to just apply a headlock, sweep and attempt to pass guard (ala BJJ & Submission Wrestling) and then the other guy did a sweep and mounted him at which point sombody stopped them because they were off the mats.

 

[BobP]

The best way to get answers to your many questions is really to go and train with some Systema people.

 

[SilatFan]

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I own several Systema instructional videos and they were always using compliant partners when demonstrationg techniques and concepts. Which is fine because they are just demonstrations. But I kinda thought that that was how a practitioner would move when faced with an attack. I expected guys to move like I've seen VV and MR move but that video showed what I would call BJJ, Judo, Sambo or Wrestling techniques and progression in action.

The guy was pretty relaxed while standing but besides the punch he threw it seemed more like a grappling session starting on the feet. When looking at that video what should my untrained Systema eye look for or notice that would make me say "aha, That is Systema!". Because that tape looked like to mediocre grapplers squareing off, one landing a punch, clinch into headlock, throw, land into guard, attempt to pass guard, get swept, get mounted and then somebody stops the action. What am I missing? I know not everybody moves the same in this art, was that a Systema guy with some grappling experience and thats why it seemed more like a grappling match?

 

[SilatFan]

I just read your last post after I typed the above one. Sorry for the late addition. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[NYCRonin]

LOL - depending on which vids you say you own - once you meet and work with Vlad (especially) and some of the older crew in the art....your going to realize that there was little comliance involved, the appearences are very deceiving - the 'work' only looks compliant....There is alot of serious hard unrehearsed or planned movement recorded on tape - but the defenses make it appear so easily done, that non-Systemists often think they are rehearsed set ups.

I wont go into a lenthgy debate about it - you have to see....better yet be the free form attacker...and experience that one often looks clumsy, unfocused or poorly skilled, when attacking a Systeman.....best get thee to a seminar or a session near you. The tapes are not enough, not by a long shot.
They are best used as a supplemental...after you get some hands on basics with an experienced guide. Until you can do that - your not going to really understand what you 'think' you see in the tapes, not fully - even at best.

 

[SilatFan]

LOL - depending on which vids you say you own - once you meet and work with Vlad (especially) and some of the older crew in the art....your going to realize that there was little comliance involved, the appearences are very deceiving - the 'work' only looks compliant....There is alot of serious hard unrehearsed or planned movement recorded on tape - but the defenses make it appear so easily done, that non-Systemists often think they are rehearsed set ups.

I wont go into a lenthgy debate about it - you have to see....better yet be the free form attacker...and experience that one often looks clumsy, unfocused or poorly skilled, when attacking a Systeman.....best get thee to a seminar or a session near you. The tapes are not enough, not by a long shot.
They are best used as a supplemental...after you get some hands on basics with an experienced guide. Until you can do that - your not going to really understand what you 'think' you see in the tapes, not fully - even at best.

Yeah, I'll just keep looking at VV seminar page and when one is held somewhere near I'll attend. I was just hoping to get some insight with those specific questions to give me some better idea of your art. Thanks for the time.

 

[Furtry]

Originally Posted by Arthur
Hard to do since they aren't Systema practitioners. Looks more like folk arts (as already said) and maybe beginner level Borba.

Arthur






Ok here is where I may be a pest but aren’t these two comments contradictory?

If Systema is a combination of Slavic folk arts and you say that these people are doing Slavic folk arts then where is the difference? Does Systema, for lack of a better phrase, do what these guys do and more?



Do you know if there is somewhere that you can point me to where there is video of Systema practitioners “sparring” in real time against practitioners of other arts?



Additionally I’d like to say thanks for fielding my questions.

Your logic is a bit off but that's not the point.
The clip doesn't illustrate everything but again that is not the point.
Systema is not so much what you do but is more of how you do it.
Systema does have a 'signature' look but the hands down thing is NOT it :lol:. At the same time the look is very individualistically influenced by the practitioners’ strengths. Systema is an art which will help you with everything you do.