Quick Control

[stonewall1350]

Are there any arts that allow for a larger guy(such as myself), to take fairly fast control of people using basic locks and grapples. I want something that I can apply to self defense and real life situations. I intend on concealed carry of firearms when I become of age for it(alot of my family is military and police). So I want something that I might be ble to adapt into that as well. Understand too that I dont WANT to shoot someone and that I want to take a course of quick control so that I dont HAVE to shoot someone.

I am a big guy(6'1 240). I do know how to throw punches and elbows, but my training is limited to sparring and bag work. I did MMA for a little while and did not learn much because I found my basic knowledge of arm bars and such very minimal. I was recetly IN a situation where I could have used this. My younger sister and here 2 friends were followed home by a crazy ex boyfriend. The situation deginerated into the kid[18] bowing up to me and wanting to fist fight me. I refused to fight A)I did not want to get into a fist fight because I KNOW I would get hit even in delivering my own blows B) I had little knowledge of how much he knew how to fight C)Risk of arrest D)Lack of knowledge of what he had in his own possesion E)Fear of escalation[my father was there and was in possesion of a small pocket pistol that he always carries and if this kid pulled a knife or worse, he was a gonner]...So basically it made me realize how much I want something that I can gain fast control or fast imobilization/incapacitation of opposition. Anybody know what I should take or learn for this? Any moves? I just need something easy to learn or fairly basic to give me a leg up in a rought situation.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

In short, yes. There are many arts which will give you a good range of options for grappling an opponent in order to control them, including the various forms of Jujutsu, Judo, BJJ, Ninjutsu and Ninjutsu-related schools, MMA schools, Wrestling schools, Shootfighting, Submission Wrestling, Hapkido, Aikido, Chinese art which teach Chin-Na, and many others. In fact, you will find that, other than the competition-based groups (Judo, BJJ, MMA, Wrestling etc), the emphasis will be on a smaller person controlling a larger, so it should be even easier for you to apply the skills.

There is a "but", however. Grappling skills typically take longer to develop than striking, as the technical side is a little more involved. So if you are after something that you can learn quickly and easily, that may be a bit harder to find, and will come down to individual instructors rather than systems.

As for your want to concealed carry a firearm, but not want to shoot, you know, this may be the non-American in me, but for crying out loud, guys, you don't want to shoot someone, don't carry a gun! Really, don't!

Okay, that's out of the way. If you are going to carry a gun, then you probably need to recognise that the two concepts you are talking about here go against each other. To grapple and control an opponent, you need to be close to them. Very close. And if they find your weapon, then it will be within their reach, and you may find yourself facing down the barrel of your own gun. On the other hand, to employ a firearm, you will require space (to draw the weapon in the first place, aim it, keeping it away from your body, and be far enough away that your opponent cannot reach out and attempt to take it from you). So you will need to make a decision quite quickly each time, are you going to go in and control, or are you going to stay back and draw your weapon. As a police officer, this question would come up a fair bit, but remember that they are going to have procedures and policies in place to help make that decision for them, as well as the fact that they are expected and required to engage, you as a public citizen are not.

As for your encounter, which appears to have prompted this train of thought, you give a number of reasons that you didn't fight.
I refused to fight (because):
A)I did not want to get into a fist fight because I KNOW I would get hit even in delivering my own blows
B) I had little knowledge of how much he knew how to fight
C)Risk of arrest
D)Lack of knowledge of what he had in his own possesion
E)Fear of escalation[my father was there and was in possesion of a small pocket pistol that he always carries and if this kid pulled a knife or worse, he was a gonner]
I would ask if these were reasons at the time, or justifications you came up with later. The reason I say that is that in a real encounter your adrelanine kicks into high gear, and that reduces your higher brain functions, such as complex thought. Many people mistake this as fear, but it is really just the effects of the adrenaline. So if that is the case, your actual reasons for not engaging will be a bit different. Not saying it is a good or bad thing, just that you either weren't in a situation that you considered bad enough to kick off your adrenaline to any great degree, or that you would not have been able to think about things such as "how much he knew about how to fight".

We'll go through each, though, and through that we'll hopefully lead to place where your real answers will be revealed (by that I mean the answers to the question you're not actually asking).

A) Yes, in any physical encounter there is the very real probablility that you will be hit, and hit hard. And, obviously, the longer you are in a physical altercation the greater the chances of you recieving damage. But if this is what stops you getting into a fight, then it will always stop you. I feel this is more the mis-interpretation of adrenaline as fear, which, as I said, is pretty common. But do get an understanding of verbal de-fusing and de-escalation tactics, as they can help avoid the physical side of things and therefore avoid the danger of being hit.

B) While I appreciate and agree with the Sun Tzu quote in your signature, remember that it is based on two opposing armies fighting each other, where information gathering can give you a pretty good idea of the disposition of the enemy forces (how many are there, how much in the way of archers, or cavelry, what their supplies are like, if they have re-inforcements available, who are their allies, who are their enemies etc), and that simply isn't something you have the time to do with the drunk guy in the bar getting abusive. There is some basic stuff you can do (how they shape up may give you a clue as to if they are a grappler, striker, or kicker, whether they have a weapon etc), but generally you will never really "know" what you are facing until you are facing it. Again, this comes across as thinking about the situation later, and asking yourself "why didn't I?', and coming up with this and other answers in order to convince yourself that you didn't "chicken out" (for the record, I don't think you did, just maybe mis-read yourself and the other guy. But we'll get to him).

C) Risk of arrest. See the answer to A. And if there are a number of Police Officers in your family, then you should be able to get advice fairly easily on how to handle such a situation.

D) Okay, in the US, particularly in the South, it is a very real possibility that anyone you get into a fight with may be carrying a weapon of some kind, even up to a handgun, so this is a very cogent point. One of our instructors went to the US a while ago for business, and when he came back said that everyone was so polite... mainly because everyone seemed scared of who may or may not have a gun! That is not a good thing, by the way...

But you counter this with your next reason, giving me the impression that again, this is an after-thought type reasoning.

E) Here you do know what weaponry is on "your" side, and you are concerned about the application of the same. Again, if you don't want a gun to be used, don't carry the damn things! But really, this is you saying that if things escalated, they would be out of your control. And if things got out of hand, you would feel responsible. That is a little unreasonable, really. Your argument here is that if the other guy pulls a weapon (his decision, out of your sphere of control), then your dad may pull his gun (his decision, out of your sphere of control), and you would feel responsible. So you don't start anything because you cannot predict the end. Again, I refer you to the answer to A for this aspect.

But there is an important part of this story you've missed. Why didn't the other guy escalate? What stopped him? In this we get our answer to what you are wanting.

He didn't escalate because it would nave been absolutely suicidal. He was fine following a few girls and intimidating them, but then when faced with yourself and your father, he didn't continue. He was most likely challenging you in order to try to salvage self-respect, or possibly to gain/maintain an Alpha position over yourself (designed to impress the girls, but not done in a good way. There are much better, and much more effective ways of doing the same thing). If you had said "yes", he most likely would have backed down.

Going through your profile, there is no mention of your age, however you mention the other guy as a "kid" at 18, your occupation is listed as "student", and you intend to conceal-carry "when you are of age". Not knowing the exact laws of Florida when it comes to firearms, I will assume you are about 20? You also decribe yourself as quite big (I am reading that as fairly solid, well-muscled, as opposed to simply "heavy"). So you are already quite an imposing figure, yes? However, despite this physical advantage, you are feeling a little less-than prepared should something come to a physical head. From your profile, it appears you have already looked into various avenues to fill this void, and they haven't quite worked out for you yet. And a few of those are exactly what would be recommended if we just take your post on face value (Aikido, Jujutsu, Judo, MMA).

So what are we actually asking here? Well, the general question I get out of all of this is this: "How do I control a situation so that there is the minimum of risk to myself, and the minimum of risk of escalation or danger to the opponent?" Well, that is something you will need to find within yourself. But an instructor (if they're good) can help you find it. Look again to the arts mentioned, but look closer at the instructors teaching. The biggest things you will need are confidence (which comes with experience), and time to learn. These skills will not come overnight. And do not neglect the de-escalation side of things. If you can, do a security-trainer course. It should be almost nothing but restraint and removal techniques, but won't give you the depth of a complete system.

Hope this helps, anything else just ask.

 

[stonewall1350]

Thank you for that reply. It was very well thought out. I do feel the need to rephrase me not wanting to use a weapon so you get a basic understanding of the mind set. It has nothing to do with me not being able to pull the trigger or a refusal to draw down when the situation calls for it. That is the purpose of me carrying concealed. My dad carries concealed because he is a veterinarian and there was a vet not long ago that was stabbed to death for the drugs they had in their vet box[which my dad has cause he went on large animal calls and that kept the supplies]. And like I said, not usin the gun is more of a restraint thing. You are less likely to use your fighting skills when you become better no? I have been in situations where I wanted a gun(4 to 1 and me being the wrong color in the wrong part of town[which is sad I know]). I had to settle for a bluff(which didnt get called). Basically the gun is for the situation that actually calls for it. Not the bar fight situation(I dont drink[partly because of my conservative nature, but also I just dont care for the taste or smell) and find myself rarely at odds with a drunk). I think there is a big misunderstanding of guns in the US. The people who we dont want to have them, already do have them. Thats the biggest reason for the rest of us not to want them banned. I am a law abiding citizen and if they banned them my guns would go too. But a criminal wouldnt toss out his. But enough of the NRA spokesman lol. I tend to rant on that subject lol.

Also when I say big, I am an atypical big southern guy lol. I am strong but I got the gut to go with it lol. Most people dont say Im fat, but they do say I am heavy(i could lose 20lbs). And again thank you for that well thought out answer. So you definatley recomend an art like Akido or jui jitsu or something along those lines?

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

For what your talking about, contorlling SD, possably in cinjunction with firearms/weapons then Japanese or Japanese orgined Jujutsu is they way to go.

Some of the others mentioned can be good, but generally Aikido is more lifestyle than combat, allthough I know some Aikidoka who are pretty realistic about SD.

Jujutsu was always intended to be interchangable with wepons, as it comes from battlefield combat.

There are also modern systems and schools that puit hand to hand and firearms training together. What I have seen of these groups is a large amount of Jujutsu influence in their training.

Shugyo!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Try looking into JUDO...it is more than you think....Aloha

...and will meet your needs...(not the sport side of judo either)

 

[Unkogami]

If you want control, you're not gonna do better than wrestling.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Stonewall1350,

Thanks for the clarification. For the record, I didn't think that you were feeling unable to pull the trigger, just that you were sounding unwilling to, although that can often amount to the same thing, really... And you're absolutely right, the facts stated are sad. So I can understand where you're coming from, and why you would be wanting a gun, I would just come down on more the "gun control" side of things.

I would probably tend to agree with Gaius Julius Caesar and look first to Jujutsu rather than Aikido, for very much the reasons he stated. Aikido will focus more on the control side of things, but will often take far longer to get useable skills out of. But both would be good. Or, as said, a Ninjutsu-related school, as they often take things such as firearms into account (particularly the Bujinkan schools, as opposed to Jinenkan or Genbukan - just the different emphasis). But the most important thing is a good teacher.

I wish you the best of luck and good training.

 

[morph4me]

I have to agree with Chris on pretty much everything he said (with the exception of gun control, but that's a discussion for another thread) I train in Aikido, but I came to it after already doing other arts, so I didn't worry about being able to defend myself. I think that jiujitsu or ninjitsu arts are what you're looking for.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hi Stonewall1350,

Thanks for the clarification. For the record, I didn't think that you were feeling unable to pull the trigger, just that you were sounding unwilling to, although that can often amount to the same thing, really... And you're absolutely right, the facts stated are sad. So I can understand where you're coming from, and why you would be wanting a gun, I would just come down on more the "gun control" side of things.

I would probably tend to agree with Gaius Julius Caesar and look first to Jujutsu rather than Aikido, for very much the reasons he stated. Aikido will focus more on the control side of things, but will often take far longer to get useable skills out of. But both would be good. Or, as said, a Ninjutsu-related school, as they often take things such as firearms into account (particularly the Bujinkan schools, as opposed to Jinenkan or Genbukan - just the different emphasis). But the most important thing is a good teacher.

I wish you the best of luck and good training.

A good teacher and school is always more important than the name of the style for sure.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

If you want control, you're not gonna do better than wrestling.

Wrestling is great, I got a lot out of it, and it's great for 1 on 1 unarmed fights. For 1 on1 fights I agree, wrestling teaches you great control.

When weapons are present though, it's not so great. When your carrying a gun on your side, in a shoulder rig or a SOB holster it can be really risky.

 

[still learning]

Hello, JUDO- known as the gentle art....is more than you think it is..!
Check it out!~!!

Verbal control- NO one teaches this...proper verbal response...(judo verbal) is OK...

Total Transformtion is a good step to begin with (design for parents with trouble kids)

WE NEED ONE FOR ADULTS TO LEARNING PROPER VERBAGE..IN HANDLING SITUTIONS...

Remember...over 23,000 people die each year because of there "ego's"...acting tough or NOT backing down...(THE Gift of Fear)

In Honolulu another man shot because of a bar incident...single guy vs a group...the single guy waited till outside of bar...took his gun and kill of them...EGO"S...

Prevention is always better than cure.....VERBAL learning is one of the first steps

Aloha,

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hello, JUDO- known as the gentle art....is more than you think it is..!
Check it out!~!!

Verbal control- NO one teaches this...proper verbal response...(judo verbal) is OK...

Total Transformtion is a good step to begin with (design for parents with trouble kids)

WE NEED ONE FOR ADULTS TO LEARNING PROPER VERBAGE..IN HANDLING SITUTIONS...

Remember...over 23,000 people die each year because of there "ego's"...acting tough or NOT backing down...(THE Gift of Fear)

In Honolulu another man shot because of a bar incident...single guy vs a group...the single guy waited till outside of bar...took his gun and kill of them...EGO"S...

Prevention is always better than cure.....VERBAL learning is one of the first steps

Aloha,

Alot of what you say is right but here is my problem.
We all know avoidence is the best way to stay out of violent situations, much like abstenence is good birth control.

When on the subject of SD, I pressume most adults and MAs get that, it's a given, so when on the subject of SD it's about how to handle it when it hits the fan. It's from there that I speak.

Too many posters (and I am not saying it's you on this point) always use the "avoidence" schtick to cover up the fact that they really know nothing about how real street violence occurs and unless you went to a High School in a ghetto (I did for a time.) school yard tuffles and sloppy shoving matches outside a bar do not count. Some use it to cover up the fact that they know they train in a dreamworld and dont have what it takes to face evil and destroy it, let alone survive it with their body and mind intact.

I dont train for a ego duel, I train for the creep that trys to mug me when I come out of CVS at 1am, because I needed medicine or baby formula therefore having to go out that late.

I do this becuase of the Urban Nomad who trys to carjack people when they get off on the wrong exit and end up in a Hell hole.

I do this because there are lowlifes who are motivated enough to try to forcably enter and invade my home.

I also do it because I'll be damned if I cant walk the street where I live because the lowlifes might be out. Let them fear me, because my personal code says that anyone who preys on others is below human so only the mechanicals and legalities are the only problem in killing them.

Verbal Judo does not work so well here like it does in so many other situations. I will say it works in most situations ego fights stem from and is a darn good tool.

Shugyo!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Gaius Julius Caesar.....Please if you get a chance to read "The Gift of Fear" ....it explains it better than I can about...why we should avoid any physcial situtions....READ it first! before responding...

...,you may win one fight...the other person will be seeking revenge...will not let you see it coming....YOUR EGO...and SD moves may have work once....HOW do you prevent this...revenge...(guns/knives/baseball bats. .. can be more powerful)..

Best to avoid in a most peaceful manner....Verbal arts....Most effective SD tool...!

.....you only have one heathy life....Long life is always better than a short life...

Aloha, sometimes it is better to bend with the winds...than get snap and break into....

PS: Move to a better and safer place...Mars..Saturn?...Japan...

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hello, Gaius Julius Caesar.....Please if you get a chance to read "The Gift of Fear" ....it explains it better than I can about...why we should avoid any physcial situtions....READ it first! before responding...

...,you may win one fight...the other person will be seeking revenge...will not let you see it coming....YOUR EGO...and SD moves may have work once....HOW do you prevent this...revenge...(guns/knives/baseball bats. .. can be more powerful)..

Best to avoid in a most peaceful manner....Verbal arts....Most effective SD tool...!

.....you only have one heathy life....Long life is always better than a short life...

Aloha, sometimes it is better to bend with the winds...than get snap and break into....

PS: Move to a better and safer place...Mars..Saturn?...Japan...

I have read the book and it has great points but it also fosters a slave mindset if you use it as a bible for how to handle threats.

I have hurt people before in SD situations and fights, very badly and except for dumb fights that happend at school or in my social setting as a youth, I have not had to deal with repeat customers coming back for more. It can happen but am I suppossed to live my life in fear and always backing down to lowlifes?

Sure if I am somehwere that I have no claim to, then I will TRY to avoid or deescalate the situation but if it's where I live and I have to possably deal with this person again, well if it cant be talked out then they get hurt, and in a way that convences them that any repaet engagement will be their end.

I agree you have to check your ego, but you still have to have an ego to accomplish anything in life and be free.

I am like Teddy Roosevelt, if it happens out of my hemisphere, it's not my deal, in my hemisphere then I will deal with it, diplomaticly or otherwise, with the otherwise allways on the table.

Shugyo!

 

[stonewall1350]

Thanks for the help guys. I dont know if my area will offer ninjitsu(gainesville florida). But I will certainly look into jui jitsu. My friend is a Marine and he was telling me how alot of the moves he uses come from that. I will probably end up throwing in some moves like rear choke holds like I have seen my uncle use(he is a former marine and now a cop and they had a guy who they tased and it did not put him down[the man was high and drunk] so my uncle put him in the rear blood choke and the guy was out in seconds).

 

[Tez3]

Stonewall, welcome to MT! Why not pop along to the meet and greet section and introduce yourself? You'll find a huge amount of information here and friendly people in all the sections. Good luck with finding what you want , someones bound to know whats available where you live!

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks for the help guys. I dont know if my area will offer ninjitsu(gainesville florida). But I will certainly look into jui jitsu. My friend is a Marine and he was telling me how alot of the moves he uses come from that. I will probably end up throwing in some moves like rear choke holds like I have seen my uncle use(he is a former marine and now a cop and they had a guy who they tased and it did not put him down[the man was high and drunk] so my uncle put him in the rear blood choke and the guy was out in seconds).

Hi,

To start with, here is a link to Bujinkan schools and training groups in the Florida area: http://www.chicago-ninjutsu.org/usdojo/florida.htm
Also, check out www.winjutsu.com if you need more, I am sure you will find something around. But remember that all schools/teachers are not equal, so take your time to check out as many as you can.

The form of Jujutsu found in MCMAP (the Marine Corps Martial Art Program) is Brazilian JiuJitsu (BJJ), which realistically is a descendant of Kodokan Judo with a large focus on ground work. Where a gun is involved, it would not be my first choice. The Japanese forms mentioned earlier will have a greater focus on stand-up grappling, as it comes from grappling in armour with weapons in a number of systems, so they will actually be a bit safer if a weapon is involved. It was included in the MCMAP system mainly for it's competitive aspect, as it gives the soldiers a way to develop an aggressive attitude, but it is openly admitted that it is not for practical use for the Marines. Rolling on the ground in full kit when you have a firearm and knives available is simply not a realistic expectation for them, but then again, it was never meant to be a practical aspect of their training.

That said, I personally have a great deal of respect for BJJ guys (and Marines, obviously), and firmly believe that there is no one better on the ground. And they will work you out like you wouldn't believe. It just isn't the optimum for what you described.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hi,

To start with, here is a link to Bujinkan schools and training groups in the Florida area: http://www.chicago-ninjutsu.org/usdojo/florida.htm
Also, check out www.winjutsu.com if you need more, I am sure you will find something around. But remember that all schools/teachers are not equal, so take your time to check out as many as you can.

The form of Jujutsu found in MCMAP (the Marine Corps Martial Art Program) is Brazilian JiuJitsu (BJJ), which realistically is a descendant of Kodokan Judo with a large focus on ground work. Where a gun is involved, it would not be my first choice. The Japanese forms mentioned earlier will have a greater focus on stand-up grappling, as it comes from grappling in armour with weapons in a number of systems, so they will actually be a bit safer if a weapon is involved. It was included in the MCMAP system mainly for it's competitive aspect, as it gives the soldiers a way to develop an aggressive attitude, but it is openly admitted that it is not for practical use for the Marines. Rolling on the ground in full kit when you have a firearm and knives available is simply not a realistic expectation for them, but then again, it was never meant to be a practical aspect of their training.

That said, I personally have a great deal of respect for BJJ guys (and Marines, obviously), and firmly believe that there is no one better on the ground. And they will work you out like you wouldn't believe. It just isn't the optimum for what you described.

I have trained with the man who is largly responsable for the development of MCMAP and the first head of the MCMAP Instructor school.

He is a Judoka, holds a high Brown in our style of Jujutsu (Japanese based) as well as a student of several Koryu, any BJJ has been added in.

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks, Gaius.

From what I understand, MCMAP has gone through a number of manifestations, with the current being taken from a number of sources, including the original (which I believe you are refering to), some Bujinkan aspects (from Jack Hoban, Bujinkan 15th Dan and former Marine), some Filipino Knife work (can't remember exactly which), and BJJ. The BJJ came from, amongst others, John Will, who was Australia's first BJJ Black Belt, under the Machados.

John was invited to the US to train the Marines (as a number of others were when they were looking to develop the "new" approach), and his approach was taken on because the Marines learnt better from him on a personal level (not because of better techniques). He attributed that to his approach of finding out what these guys related to, and teaching to that.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Here is a list of Florida Bujinkan:
http://n-i-n.com/FloridaBujinkanDirectory.html

If you want Genbukan:
http://www.floridaninpo.com/training.html