Question on different stick fight styles

Alan0354

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Hi

I have been looking on youtube on stick fight. I yet to find any style that hold the stick with two hands like Katana. I am practicing using two hands like Katana because it enables me to hit harder, using a 20oz cane to add the stopping power. Did I miss a style that using two hands?

It seems that there's mainly two different stick fight styles, the most popular one is Philippine keli/arnis, then there is Irish stick fight. That's about all I see. Irish stick fight is very different, it actually like jabs in punching, it jabs out, let the other end of the stick to bounce on the forearm to stop the stick and bounce back to launch the second jab faster. Then they use a lot of two hand with thumbs facing each other close to the middle of the stick and hit with either end like punching.

It seems the keli/arnis is better because it actually swing the stick, it should hit harder. But I'll let you experts comment on this as I don't know much of Irish stick fight.

I actually started out practice keli/arnis use single hand. After 3 months, I just feel it's not powerful enough because the heaviest stick I can use is about 13oz. I know most keli sticks are as light as 6oz in order to get the speed. The youtube video that convince me to switch to two hands was one on competition. The two guys just non stop hitting each other for the whole duration of the fight, they don't even worry about blocking, just kept swinging and landing!!!! This is NOT the way I want to use for self defense. I cannot afford to wack the guy and he just look and say "ouch"!!! I switched to two hand katana style right on that day!!! I am not that strong, BUT I don't think I am that weak judging from the weight I pushed in the gym compare to people around. 13.5oz stick is about the max I feel comfortable with one hand, any heavier just slowing me down and harder to control. That's already at least 4oz heavier than the normal thick keli sticks. Still, it's not 20oz!!! Also, it is so much easy to loss the stick during the fight when swinging with one hand than with two.

On top, I try doing casting with one hand, it's hard. You can cast out, reach the max distance, but after the hit, pulling back is a lot harder compare to two hands. I find single hand stick needs a lot more open space because the swing is wider. With two hands, I can control much better. Particular on casting, I can generate more power without starting with a wide swing, then after the peak of the power, I can pull back easier without having to let the stick keep swinging. Bottom line, two hands result in more compact movement and can be use in tighter space without worrying about hitting things in the surrounding as much. BUT why nobody use two hands?

This is how I feel, please comment and correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks
 

isshinryuronin

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Not an expert on this, but the following should lead you to what you are looking for, though you did not say whether you're looking for sport, art or self-defense applications.

Look at jo and kenjitsu. Also look at aikido as some of their dojo teach this as well. The last two will emulate sword techniques. The jo will be for a variety of situations. These weapons will be 3.5-4 ft long and are usually held in two hands. The wood baton, though shorter, has a number of two handed techniques as well.

The FMA sticks will be about 2 feet long, used with one hand, and used much differently than the Japanese based sticks, mostly following the knife and empty hand movements of kali/escrimi. The shorter sticks are more practical for common self-defense while the longer ones are mostly traditional weapons, though still can be useful for self-def situations.
 
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Alan0354

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Not an expert on this, but the following should lead you to what you are looking for, though you did not say whether you're looking for sport, art or self-defense applications.

Look at jo and kenjitsu. Also look at aikido as some of their dojo teach this as well. The last two will emulate sword techniques. The jo will be for a variety of situations. These weapons will be 3.5-4 ft long and are usually held in two hands. The wood baton, though shorter, has a number of two handed techniques as well.

The FMA sticks will be about 2 feet long, used with one hand, and used much differently than the Japanese based sticks, mostly following the knife and empty hand movements of kali/escrimi. The shorter sticks are more practical for common self-defense while the longer ones are mostly traditional weapons, though still can be useful for self-def situations.
Thanks for the reply.

I am mainly looking for self defense. I'll look into those. I thought Kali sticks are like 28" long, I bought a few pairs, they are all that long. They are between 6 to 7oz for the 1" diameter ones. My cane is 30" long. My cane is United Cutlery Night watchman, made of nylon and it's heavy, even at 30", it's 20oz already. I have rattan canes, it's 1 1/8" thick, it's only 11.5oz for 30" long. They are very light.
 

Bobbycat

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I would prefer a rattan cane. I trained some tricks with it for self defense before my abroad trip. I think self defense with a cane is more technical work than the impact power. Because of that the lighter cane is better for different applications. Internet is full with different cane applications and, from my point of view, 15-20 applications would be sufficient for most situations.
 
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Alan0354

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I would prefer a rattan cane. I trained some tricks with it for self defense before my abroad trip. I think self defense with a cane is more technical work than the impact power. Because of that the lighter cane is better for different applications. Internet is full with different cane applications and, from my point of view, 15-20 applications would be sufficient for most situations.
I started out with pure Kali style using rattan cane with single hand. I learned all the swinging and all.

I just found it doesn't have enough power. You might be able to land a few hits, but if you cannot drop the person, it's not going to do any good. Like I said, I change my mind when I saw the video of two people hitting each other over and over and over for like 2 minutes before I stopped watching. They were going at it in full power and didn't even slow down the opponent after 2 minutes!!! Good for competition and matches, not good for self defense.

I have quite a few rattan canes, they are quite big compare to the ones they use in Kali matches. They are 1 1/8" diameter and 11.5oz. I had the seller specifically chosen the biggest and heaviest ones for me. That's very very heavy for rattan. Still, when I use them to hit the heavy bag with one hand, it's not hitting hard. You should hear the difference in sound between the rattan vs my Nylon Night Watchman with two hands that is 20oz.

If I swing full power with the Night Watchman, do you think the one holding the rattan cane can stop the blow even if he block it with the rattan cane. My suspicion is my Night Watchman swing with both hands will blow right through the block and hit the person.

Also, the Night Watchman comes with a very hard rubber tip that is 2/3oz heavy. It's hard and heavy, this will further increase the hitting power.
UnitedCutlery.Com: Night Watchman Premium Adjustable Walking Cane - UC3129

I cut the hook away to make it look very innocent and cut down to 30". Here are my Night Watchman, one with cushioned head for hitting the heavy bag.
3 Night Watchman.jpg


You can see I have rope for going around my wrist to prevent the cane from flying off my hand. The rubber foot is so hard it lack traction on the ground. It's for hitting more than for walking!!!
 
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Bobbycat

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Honestly, I do not think you cross canes with someone. Old people with canes are not aggressive. Usually, your opponent will be younger, quick and without a cane/stick but most likely with a knife or gun. In these situations, speed is a king. If you want, you can ever kill somebody using a tip of your cane. Again, speed is a main advantage for any martial art, including cane skill.
 
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Alan0354

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That's why I concentrate on using two hands swing to get back the speed. I tried rattan with two hands, it's not much faster even it's a lot lighter. Key is two hands. Yes, if I swing the Night Watchman with one hand, it's slower, not with two hands. This is not like half the weight and you double the speed.

I recorded the one hand rattan stick 3 months ago:

I recorded the two hand with Night Watchman one month and half ago:

I don't think there is a big difference in speed. I am slow, whether it's rattan one hand or the heavy cane with two hands. So be that with the limitation, I might as well go two hands with heavier cane!!



I am doing it quite differently now since I learn casting from Lamont Glass(Blindside) here. This is his video, it's really good:

With casting, it's a lot more compact, much better in tighter space. I am still practicing hard on casting, I'll make another video when I get better.
 
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Alan0354

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There is no difference between stick fight and sword fight. there are many 2 hands sword fighting styles.

https://i.postimg.cc/wBBtNX74/miao-diao-comb-hair.gif
I see a lot of difference, for sword, they use a lot of slicing, cutting and poking, not a lot of chopping like the blunt instrument. I watched katana, a lot of them are not useful for cane. You definitely wasting time learning those slicing and cutting. You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick, it's not something you can rely on to stop the attacker. I tried a lot on the heavy bag, it just doesn't.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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I see a lot of difference, for sword, they use a lot of slicing, cutting and poking, not a lot of chopping like the blunt instrument. I watched katana, a lot of them are not useful for cane. You definitely wasting time learning those slicing and cutting. You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick, it's not something you can rely on to stop the attacker. I tried a lot on the heavy bag, it just doesn't.
When I learned my sword/knife skill, I was asked to go into the woods and use my sword to chop down 1000 branches. From the chopping skill point of view, the sword skill and cane skill are the same.
 
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Alan0354

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I have been looking for Kendo on youtube, I watch ( say skip forward) quite a few of them.


You can see on the right of the screen a whole bunch of related videos if you pull down the menu of Mix-Kendo Guide.

It is SOOOOOO Boring!! The movement is SOOOOOOO Stiff. It's like you have to do it exactly to do a straight chop down!!! This really remind me of those chinese kung fu that you have to have everything EXACTLY in the right position, not too wide, not to high, not too low, not too this and not too that...................

Call me ignorant, all the videos on one vertical chop down, they don't use the shoulder, waist to concentrate the force, just up.....down......up. I am not so sure I want to learn two hands strike from Japanese Kendo!!! Does it even produce enough power for blunt instrument like a cane? Maybe with a sharp sword, it might work well. But I prefer what I have been practicing.

I know I am new, only about 1/2 year of practice. But I have been into kick boxing type for years, I learned you use a lot of synergy to focus the force to one point like casting shown by Lamont Glass's video. That's how you generate a lot of force focus at the point you hit. I don't buy what I see in the Kendo videos.

I was very patient watching quite a few of the Kendo videos, I can't take it anymore. Unlike the FMA Kali, I really learn from those videos and just straight translate to two hand swinging. It just make so much more sense.

I truly never thought of it this way until today. Maybe I find my answer talking in this thread, I am just doing Kali, but with two hands to use the heavy cane for extra power. I do learn a little from Irish stick fight holding with both hands close to the middle of the cane and hit with both ends of the cane like doing jab and reverse punch in punching for close distance.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Alan0354

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You would be better off to hold a cane like a baseball bat than like a katana.
thanks

This is what I have been doing before. Now I go a big step from this. The reason is swinging like a baseball bet tends to over swing if I miss the target and lose balance, and risk losing the cane. I since practice cast like Lamont Glass show in the 3rd video in post #7 where I concentrate the power to one point, then pull back the still while it's still circling around. This not only prevent over swing, it recover faster to launch a second strike. This is quite hard, I've been practicing a lot for two or three weeks already, still, it's not good enough.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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One important stick principle is the moment that your stick hit on your opponent's stick, the moment that your stick slide along his stick, and hit his hand.

You can train this principle by hitting on a tree trunk, and then scratch the tree skin off.
 

Bobbycat

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Important moment is a first unexpected strike from your opponent. If your stick is very heavy, you will not defense yourself from this strike.
 
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Alan0354

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Important moment is a first unexpected strike from your opponent. If your stick is very heavy, you will not defense yourself from this strike.
I practice a lot on first move from neutral cane on the floor, pick up and strike. It's not much difference between a light cane and the heavier cane. That's more on situation awareness than the weight.

Speaking of the weight of the cane, it's not as if I choose a 20oz cane, there's no in between ones that I like. Rattan cane top out at about 13oz, I have 4 already, to get to 14oz, the rattan has to be really thick and it's not easy to find one at all.

I do NOT trust wood cane. I bought a cheap one from Amazon, I hit the bag, it did not last 2 minutes before it cracked and break into two.

So the next one up is the Nylon cane from United Cutlery that I am using now. I bought more than 10 canes already. I bought a few Nylon canes, I even DRILLED 3/8" hole at the center of the tip of the cane, I drilled like 8" deep to shed of like 2/3oz of weight. I tried it all. For a while, I did not even put the hard rubber tip on to save 2/3oz.

It is NOT easy to buy canes. this is my collection:
Cane collection.jpg


The only in-between ones are Cold Steel fiber glass stick that is about 13.5oz for the longer one. Problem with them is it's very thin. I wrapped some with padding for hitting the heavy bags to protect the heavy bags. These are not cheap canes, other than the first one on the right, all the others are $40 or over each. The most expensive ones are the Cold Steel, they are like $79 each. AND I have to modify a lot to make them "look" more friendly and ordinary so they don't stand out.

It's not as if I don't try to get something a little lighter. It would be nice to get one that is like 16oz and can take the abuse I put them through. The two Nylon one with yellow padding at the tip are the two I messed up drilling the hole in the middle. It's not easy to drill a deep straight hole into a stick beyond 7 to 8". You have to drill very straight down the middle of the stick. I messed up and the hole drilled off center and drifted to the side when it got deeper. I just use them for hitting the bags. So far, they stand up to the abuse. Those Nylon canes are very tough.

BTW, if you watch the middle video in post #7, you'll see I am pretty much doing all the things the video you showed in post #14. That was done over a month ago. Like I said, I moved on quite a bit since.
 
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