Question from a non TKD person

[dubljay]

Okay, I have had no experience with Tae Kwon Do what so ever. Part of that is because of the 'mcdojo' stigma that seems to be so frequent with TKD. I know that it's only a broad and unjust generalization. As TKD practitioners how do you deal with the mcdojo stigma? Do you thnk with TKD being in the Olymics will help alleviate this problem?

Like I said I've not had any experience with TKD and I'm just trying to see this from a TKD perspective. I hope I've not offended anyone as that is not my intent.


-Josh

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Okay, I have had no experience with Tae Kwon Do what so ever. Part of that is because of the 'mcdojo' stigma that seems to be so frequent with TKD. I know that it's only a broad and unjust generalization. As TKD practitioners how do you deal with the mcdojo stigma? Do you thnk with TKD being in the Olymics will help alleviate this problem?

Like I said I've not had any experience with TKD and I'm just trying to see this from a TKD perspective. I hope I've not offended anyone as that is not my intent.
-Josh

Unfortunately, TKD has MORE than its share of McDojangs, although Kenpo is working really, really hard on catching up with its own McDojos. However, when you find good TKD - it is great. Some of the finest martial artists on the planet study TKD. Unlike some MA, you CANNOT be out of shape and practice TKD at a high level.

Actually, the Olympics, IMHO, exacerbated the problem in many ways. It's been nearly twenty years since the intro. of Olympic TKD and things have gone from bad to worse.

Since you live in Sacramento, I'd advise you to check watch one of Andy Ahpo's advanced classes. Sure he's Tang Soo Do, but you'll get an idea of how good Korean kicking styles can get. I was blown away after watching some of his seniors years ago.

 

[terryl965]

Dubjay I believe TKd has been hurt with the Olympic sport aspect people see two fighter just stand there waiting for someone to throw a kick so they can counter fight it has made it a chess match over the last 15-20 years. The Mcdojo image has been very distrubing in my views for not all practitionals treat there Dojang in that manner. So many instructors have sold out for the love of money, water down criteia's and giving BB to people and programs that gaurentees a BB in as little as 2 years. I know myself and my school the average is 4-6 years just to reach Bb the problem is student go to other schools and see people get there in 12-18 months and I loose them to those schools. I know for a fact the reason we win 95% of the time is becouse my green belt has 18-24 months of training compared to 6-9 months from other schools. There is nothing one can do about those less guided instructors out there dis-respecting the Art they once loved for the all mighty dollar. I for one hopes the Art of TKD will live with the little influence I hae had on my students and believe me, my students understand the difference, every once in a while I ge some of my students back from those Mcdojo's and they relize they where taken for a ride on the money train.

On a side note I'm proud of the Art and know the values if one put in the proper training, as is with any Art.
Terry

 

[arnisador]

The Olympic status does indeed up the athletic level. A TKD'er is more likely to be in solid shape, flexible, etc. That's all good! Of course, it may also take away from the self-defense.

 

[dubljay]

Thanks for the response terryl965. I do think that TKD does have a lot to offer. I see your point about Olympic TKD helping worsen the problem. I guess I didn't think about it like that. I would like to see TKD get out from under the shadow of this, which is why I asked about it.

Johnathan I am also aware of how Kenpo is becoming a haven for McDojos. It's a sad trend that comes with popularity of an art.

Again I really hope I haven't offended anyone with this, I'm just trying to understand it from another prespective.

-Joshua

 

[terryl965]

Thanks for the response terryl965. I do think that TKD does have a lot to offer. I see your point about Olympic TKD helping worsen the problem. I guess I didn't think about it like that. I would like to see TKD get out from under the shadow of this, which is why I asked about it.

Johnathan I am also aware of how Kenpo is becoming a haven for McDojos. It's a sad trend that comes with popularity of an art.

Again I really hope I haven't offended anyone with this, I'm just trying to understand it from another prespective.

-Joshua

Joshua how can one offend by asking question, you have always to my knowledge use proper guidelines in asking your question without being arrobant or de-grading to anybody on this forum. People like you are what makes the world be a better place for people like me.
God Bless
Terry

 

[Gemini]

Dealing with the stigma was very difficult for me for a long time. It finally got to the point where I just said screw it. As a die hard practitioner of the art, I'm comfortable in my abilities learned from my art and try to keep a higher profile than I used to simply because I refuse to allow the not knowing naysayers take control of it.

It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. I believe there are alot more good schools still out there that are overshadowed by they bad hype. If we persevere, we will hold out through this growing pain.

 

[Miles]

Dealing with the stigma was very difficult for me for a long time. It finally got to the point where I just said screw it. As a die hard practitioner of the art, I'm comfortable in my abilities learned from my art and try to keep a higher profile than I used to simply because I refuse to allow the not knowing naysayers take control of it.

It only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. I believe there are alot more good schools still out there that are overshadowed by they bad hype. If we persevere, we will hold out through this growing pain.

Super post Gemini! Ultimately, none of us can control anyone but ourselves so forget what people may think or believe and train.

One of my friends has done Long Fist Kung Fu for over 35 yrs and he sometimes joins my class. He says that he used to have a poor view of TKD, but over the past 6 years, he has a better appreciation for it. He is now one of my programs biggest supporters even getting my students on TV once to demonstrate self-defense.

Miles

 

[TigerWoman]

I would venture to say that every regular TKD person here comes from a non-mcdojo school. We are on the board because of the passion we have for our art. We are the silent majority unfortunately and the mcdojos seem to get the attention. The difference is that those schools don't last, as they offer little except a belt to wear. I have seen quite a few come and go in our town. Does it bother us? While I can't speak for others, for myself, not really. TW

 

[Fluffy]

The "McDojo" label does fallow around TKD, I'm not so sure why, there are as many non-TKD schools out there I would concider a "McDojo". It's when you have a short testing cycle and no real standards that you have this issue. I find it also fallows around bigger orgs (WTF, ATA) where there is either little or no control over who teches at what school (WTF) or there is way to much of a set program and not alot of control via School owners (ATA).

I also would say visit Grand Master Andy Ahpo, you could also visit Master Clint Robinson.........he's a butt kicker! Saw them both last July, GM Ahpo has lost so much weight - I barley recognized him.

-Adam

 

[Makalakumu]

Since you live in Sacramento, I'd advise you to check watch one of Andy Ahpo's advanced classes. Sure he's Tang Soo Do, but you'll get an idea of how good Korean kicking styles can get. I was blown away after watching some of his seniors years ago.

Master Ahpo is awesome! In the old days, there were three powerhouses that kicked everyones butts. The people from California under Master Ahpo. The people from the northeast under Master Ferraro. And the people from Minnesota under Master Seiberlich. Seriously, I think training at Master Ahpo's school would blow you away.

 

[Fluffy]

Master Ahpo is awesome! In the old days, there were three powerhouses that kicked everyones butts. The people from California under Master Ahpo. The people from the northeast under Master Ferraro. And the people from Minnesota under Master Seiberlich. Seriously, I think training at Master Ahpo's school would blow you away.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Kenpoist]

I would just advise all the newbie's out there seeking a school (TKD , Kenpo or other) to really do your research before comitting to a dojo.
Look at the advanced student's and the instructor and see if they have clean crisp technique or have merely fallen out of a Napolean Dynamite movie. Don't get wrapped up in getting that coveted black belt, becasue IMHO, it doesn't mean much if they haven't given you the tools to truely defend yourself. I have seen many Black Belts that have a false sense of confidence and just went throught the motions to obtain their black belts. The day's of hard training (knuckle push up's/ soaking your gi in sweat/ getting knocked around a little/ comming home with bruises on your arms and legs) have started to fade.
Maybe they should come up with an "honorary black belt" - for those that went through the motions to get their belt and a "true black belt" fo those that have proven themselves and are held in high regard by their peers.

STAY AWAY FROM MCDOJO"S!!!!

 

[jfarnsworth]

...It's when you have a short testing cycle and no real standards that you have this issue....

That's the best damned description of a mcdojo I ever seen.

I hope you don't mind that I steal that saying? I'm definately going to use that.

 

[jfarnsworth]

...Maybe they should come up with an "honorary black belt" - for those that went through the motions to get their belt and a "true black belt" fo those that have proven themselves and are held in high regard by their peers.

Agreed!
We were just talking about legitamacy on monday's class. As I hold the belt ranks to standards and others out there do not. The problem is that you can't always group 2 first blacks together. Reason being if you have one that went through the mcdojo studio and another who did not; the belt loses the value to the one that worked his *** off. Seen it too many times.

 

[AdrenalineJunky]

Everything's being McDojoed out these days, it seems.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I'm sure you can still find those hardcore guys every now and then. They are far and few between but are still out there.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I just ignore it so it doesn't make me mad. I feel strongly about TKD and don't want to get mad at anyone for generalizing it into the "McDojo" classification. I know my school wasn't a McDojo, though some TKD schools are. I think every style has it's McDojos, just some has more than others, with karate, TKD, and kenpo being at the top. I know my school wasn't a McDojo for 3 reasons:

1. To be a McDojo, you have to get your black belt in a short time and pay alot of money for it. It took me and my classmates 5 yrs to get a black belt and we only paid $125 for the test. $75 of that $125 went towards the belt.

2. Most McDojoists couldn't kick the crap out of an old person. I've been in 3 real fights and won every one of them.

3. My instructor didn't charge an arm and a leg for anything. I hear most McDojos do. Mine was $35 a month for classes 3 times a week and testing for a color belt was $25. Not to shabby!

This is just what I've come to understand about McDojos: High prices for belts you get in a short period of time and teaching you stuff that wouldn't actually work in the real world.

Becky

 

[IcemanSK]

2. Most McDojoists couldn't kick the crap out of an old person. I've been in 3 real fights and won every one of them.

Becky

Becky,

Where are you hangin' out that you're gettin' into all these fights? Do we need to talk?

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

Becky,

Where are you hangin' out that you're gettin' into all these fights? Do we need to talk?

LOL..... No. Two were in high school when I was there 2 years ago, where word leaked out that I was in taekwondo. So, of course, everyone tried to talk me into fighting, which I never excepted. Twice though, a guy threw a punch at me and I had to fight back. After those two fights, people left me alone and were alittle afraid of me. LOL Another time, a group of friends and I were in a night club, and a guy was trying to get with one of my friends. After she repeatedly told him no, he grabbed her breast, and that's where I jumped in. Lol Since being out of school and away from guys who think they are macho and gangstas, I haven't been in any fights.

Becky