Question for LEOs

[RandomPhantom700]

Alright, so here's an anecdotal story that I'd like some input on. It involves police jurisdiction rules, which I"ll look up soon, but I'd also like to get a more human input if possible.

Some months ago, I dropped my friend off at his apartment, which is not in the best part of town. I proceeded to a nearby McDonalds which is along the usual bar crawl. Ten minutes later my friend calls, telling me that a knife-fight had broken out at his apartment complex, and that the guy with the knife was still running around. I saw a Sheriff's officer standing by his patrol car in the parking lot, and proceeded outside to tell him about the situation, as the apartment complex is literally right down the street from the McDonalds.

The sheriff then told me that it was out of his jurisdiction, and I'd have to find some city cop. Then he returned to his proverbial coffee and donuts. No call in to the dispatch or anything like that. I just stood there for a second dumbfounded.

My inquiry is twofold:

(1) My friend later said that the whole jurisdiction claim was BS, that a cop's supposed to respond, sheriff or city. Anyone know about this?

(2) Regardless of the jurisdiction rules, is it normal for a sheriff or other LEO to just brush off a bonafide emergency, especially when it's just down the street and a simple call in to dispatch would have changed things?

Thanks all.

 

[MJS]

Alright, so here's an anecdotal story that I'd like some input on. It involves police jurisdiction rules, which I"ll look up soon, but I'd also like to get a more human input if possible.

Some months ago, I dropped my friend off at his apartment, which is not in the best part of town. I proceeded to a nearby McDonalds which is along the usual bar crawl. Ten minutes later my friend calls, telling me that a knife-fight had broken out at his apartment complex, and that the guy with the knife was still running around. I saw a Sheriff's officer standing by his patrol car in the parking lot, and proceeded outside to tell him about the situation, as the apartment complex is literally right down the street from the McDonalds.

The sheriff then told me that it was out of his jurisdiction, and I'd have to find some city cop. Then he returned to his proverbial coffee and donuts. No call in to the dispatch or anything like that. I just stood there for a second dumbfounded.

My inquiry is twofold:

(1) My friend later said that the whole jurisdiction claim was BS, that a cop's supposed to respond, sheriff or city. Anyone know about this?

(2) Regardless of the jurisdiction rules, is it normal for a sheriff or other LEO to just brush off a bonafide emergency, especially when it's just down the street and a simple call in to dispatch would have changed things?

Thanks all.

I'm not an LEO, but I do work for a police dept. as a dispatcher, so I could shed some light on this. The jurisdiction claim is not BS. The dept. in which the incident is happening is the one that needs to take the complaint. I understand your friends concern for what he was seeing in his complex, but he should have picked up the phone and called 911, not a friend.

Whenever I take a call that is not in the area that my PD covers, I transfer it to the proper agency. Cell phone calls are the worst, because its not a direct line, so whatever tower it hits, it goes to that dept. I've taken 911 calls that are 2 or 3 towns away, so I transfer them. This applies to calls on the highway...I transfer them to the State Police.

At the very least, the officer that you approached should have contacted his dispatcher, gave them the information and had them contact the dept. that covers the area where this fight was taking place.

I hope this helped.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

I'm not an LEO, but I do work for a police dept. as a dispatcher, so I could shed some light on this. The jurisdiction claim is not BS. The dept. in which the incident is happening is the one that needs to take the complaint. I understand your friends concern for what he was seeing in his complex, but he should have picked up the phone and called 911, not a friend.

Whenever I take a call that is not in the area that my PD covers, I transfer it to the proper agency. Cell phone calls are the worst, because its not a direct line, so whatever tower it hits, it goes to that dept. I've taken 911 calls that are 2 or 3 towns away, so I transfer them. This applies to calls on the highway...I transfer them to the State Police.

At the very least, the officer that you approached should have contacted his dispatcher, gave them the information and had them contact the dept. that covers the area where this fight was taking place.

I hope this helped.

Mike

I'm embarassed by the sheriff's actions. I'll grant the jurisdiction argument; it's possible. When I was in patrol, it wasn't at all uncommon for someone to advise me of crashes or incidents outside my small jurisdiction. Depending on where it was, and what the incident was, I'd either ask my dispather to notify the county, roll over to it on my own, or a combination of both depending on how close it was and why.

It is possible that the sheriff was on a special assignment and couldn't leave... but I think I'd still advise his superiors of his actions.

 

[redfang]

Typically a deputy is employeed by a county and has jurisdiction anywhere in that county. While (in my state) a city officer has jurisdiction in their city and one mile beyond. However, in areas where city police have jurisdiction, sheriff's depts often don't field calls. Where I work, sheriff's department handles county, city police handle the city. We do tend to cooperate and sheriff's dept will check in on something to make sure no one is hurt and notify city and vice versa. But really to get the proper response your friend's first call should have been to 911.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Let me get this straight, you are at a McD's and your friend calls you from his apt to say theres a knife fight going on? Whats the distance between the McD's and the friends apt? If I were the cop and someone tells me theres a fight going on somewhere via a friends call on the phone, Id tell you to tell your friend to call 911. Granted I would probably ask for your friends address and put it out over the air. But 3rd party info is notoriously inaccurate.

 

[jks9199]

At the very least, the officer that you approached should have contacted his dispatcher, gave them the information and had them contact the dept. that covers the area where this fight was taking place.

I'm embarassed by the sheriff's actions. I'll grant the jurisdiction argument; it's possible. When I was in patrol, it wasn't at all uncommon for someone to advise me of crashes or incidents outside my small jurisdiction. Depending on where it was, and what the incident was, I'd either ask my dispather to notify the county, roll over to it on my own, or a combination of both depending on how close it was and why.

It is possible that the sheriff was on a special assignment and couldn't leave... but I think I'd still advise his superiors of his actions.

Let me get this straight, you are at a McD's and your friend calls you from his apt to say theres a knife fight going on? Whats the distance between the McD's and the friends apt? If I were the cop and someone tells me theres a fight going on somewhere via a friends call on the phone, Id tell you to tell your friend to call 911. Granted I would probably ask for your friends address and put it out over the air. But 3rd party info is notoriously inaccurate.

I want to expand on my comments; I was a little hurried when I replied. I still think it's reasonable to ask why the sheriff's deputy couldn't at least have advised his dispatch. (Dumb question -- is the OP certain it was a sheriff, and not a security guard? Or a sheriff from around there, and not someone from another jurisdiction heading in for a prisoner or who just lives in the area?)

As I said -- it's possible he couldn't leave the restaurant for some legitimate and justifiable reason.

Bigger question... Did the OP's buddy (who apparently knows about jurisdictional coverage...) call 911? Or at least somebody with him? If not -- why not? His phone worked.

Blotan Hunka's point about 3rd parties is good -- but, personally, when I was confronted by a similar situation, I called it in, and responded to cover the scene until the locals could arrive. I'd rather go a little bit out of my jurisdiction, and prevent a stabbing or get rescue started than end up explaining later why I ignored the person's report. Even if the only person I had to explain it to was the goofy looking guy who stares at me every morning when I shave. (Note... some things, like obvious inebriation or other reasons to discount the 3rd party report could change my opinion.) But that's why I suggested contact the sheriff's office. Maybe the deputy did nothing wrong. Maybe he heard the radio call and knew that the local PD was already on scene, and had handled it. (There was a 10 minute minimum lapse between the buddy getting home and calling the OP; that can be a very long time.) Maybe the deputy did call it in, and the OP just didn't realize it. Maybe the deputy's GOs and brass wouldn't cover him if he did anything. Or maybe he was wrong, and needs some guidance. We don't know. We aren't really in a position to judge. But his brass is and does. (Of course, I'm lucky enough to work in a department that, unless the cop WAS wrong, works hard to make sure that internal complaints are cleared, instead of gunning for cops.)

 

[MJS]

Good points all around. Perhaps, I too was a bit hurried when I first replied. I can only speak for the 2 depts. that I dispatch for. It may very well be possible for other town/city agencies to cross lines..I don't know. I take calls many times for someone lets say, getting harrassing phone calls. They are getting the calls at their home, 5 towns away, but the accused party lives in the city that I work in. Despite this, the PD in their town needs to take the initial complaint, regardless of the accused parties location. Doesn't matter if they live 1 town away.

This case is more serious than phone calls, but the point being, every agency is going to have their own policies. People don't think clearly when there is a crisis. I can go on and on about various calls I've taken and I'm sure others can too. The most important thing to keep in mind, is if you are going to get involved, then call the right person, and that would mean calling 911 from your house. You will get the right agency, and you will be able to give them helpful info. so they can relay this to the responding officers.

 

[punisher73]

I work for the local sheriff's dept. and in our county. The dispatch center is run by the city (located in their police dept.) and dispatches the sheriff's dept., city police, and state police post. So the information is shared pretty freely, about who gets what call and what is going on.

That being said, even though the Sheriff's Dept. jurisdiction is county wide, there is alot of political stuff that goes on when it comes down to "who's call is it" and it is very territorial and political to justify funding for the amount of calls your agency is taking.

Could better steps have been taken? Most definately. But, the officer in question might have had his reasons for why he responded the way he did.

 

[MJS]

I work for the local sheriff's dept. and in our county. The dispatch center is run by the city (located in their police dept.) and dispatches the sheriff's dept., city police, and state police post. So the information is shared pretty freely, about who gets what call and what is going on.

That being said, even though the Sheriff's Dept. jurisdiction is county wide, there is alot of political stuff that goes on when it comes down to "who's call is it" and it is very territorial and political to justify funding for the amount of calls your agency is taking.

Could better steps have been taken? Most definately. But, the officer in question might have had his reasons for why he responded the way he did.

Such true words in bold! Its not just the cops either. Firefighters are in the same boat. God help you if you get a duel response call. I sit and laugh and how they argue over which area its in, which radio channel to use, etc. Just go to the damn call. LOL! My God...someone house could be burning, someone could be having a heart attack, and these guys are fighting.

Nobody will ever be happy, but hey, just follow the rules and things'll be much simpler.

 

[Drac]

I'm embarassed by the sheriff's actions. I'll grant the jurisdiction argument; it's possible. When I was in patrol, it wasn't at all uncommon for someone to advise me of crashes or incidents outside my small jurisdiction. Depending on where it was, and what the incident was, I'd either ask my dispather to notify the county, roll over to it on my own, or a combination of both depending on how close it was and why.

It is possible that the sheriff was on a special assignment and couldn't leave... but I think I'd still advise his superiors of his actions.

Again jks beat me too it...Sometimes the SD is real funny about the local coming into THEIR jurisdiction..Me I usually do what jks does just to insure there are no serious injuries that do not require immediatly medical attention..

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Let me get this straight, you are at a McD's and your friend calls you from his apt to say theres a knife fight going on? Whats the distance between the McD's and the friends apt? If I were the cop and someone tells me theres a fight going on somewhere via a friends call on the phone, Id tell you to tell your friend to call 911. Granted I would probably ask for your friends address and put it out over the air. But 3rd party info is notoriously inaccurate.

The distance between the McDonalds and the apartment complex is less than a 2-minute walk, I'll usually park beneath the McDonalds (it sits above a parking lot) when going to his place because it's easier then dealing with his complex's parking lot.

As for why he didn't call 911 himself, explaining that would be a bit tangental, and a bit complicated. Suffice it to say, he was trying to get around having his name involved. Stupid in hindsight, of course, but as someone already said, crisis reasoning isn't logical.

(Dumb question -- is the OP certain it was a sheriff, and not a security guard? Or a sheriff from around there, and not someone from another jurisdiction heading in for a prisoner or who just lives in the area?)

Yep, squad car, dark green uniform, same sheriff's patrol car that's always parked at that restaurant to pick up drunks from the local bar crawl. It wasn't a security guard.

 

[jks9199]

Not completely off topic -- but not really in response to anything other than the general situation.

Let's discuss calling 911. What I'm going to say is pretty reliable for most of the US. There's a different number in England, I know, and it's possible that some of the procedures vary. And I'm not going tear into what a PSCC is, who handles what, and so on.

If you've seen a serious crime committed, or it's being committed as you watch, or you fear for someone's safety... Call 911. If you're in doubt... Call 911. The call taker will sort it out, and send help as appropriate.

You don't want to give your name -- you don't have to. They'll ask; simply say that you want to be anonymous. If they push... Well, N. E. Mouse seems to make occasional calls in my neck of the woods. Do give the location, as accurately as you can. Yes, there are all sorts of gadgets designed to tell the 911 call taker where you're calling from. Murphy's Law will strike, and the computer will be down. Or your cell phone will bypass the tower right next door, and be picked up by a tower that you're just at the outer fringe of its coverage. Or you're using VoIP, and their computer screwed up, and the 911 center you reached is the one where the server lives, not your own. (Yes, it's happened.) So give the location, as accurately as you can.

Tell them what's happening. Give as much detail as you can. Try to stay on the line with them as long as possible. Often updates from the caller give the responding officers very important information -- or save time and get them started in the right direction.

But don't be afraid to call the cops because you don't want to get your name involved. You can stay anonymous. And you're in a better position to give the information than if you tell someone else... who may not bother after they hang up.

 

[MJS]

Not completely off topic -- but not really in response to anything other than the general situation.

Let's discuss calling 911. What I'm going to say is pretty reliable for most of the US. There's a different number in England, I know, and it's possible that some of the procedures vary. And I'm not going tear into what a PSCC is, who handles what, and so on.

If you've seen a serious crime committed, or it's being committed as you watch, or you fear for someone's safety... Call 911. If you're in doubt... Call 911. The call taker will sort it out, and send help as appropriate.

You don't want to give your name -- you don't have to. They'll ask; simply say that you want to be anonymous. If they push... Well, N. E. Mouse seems to make occasional calls in my neck of the woods. Do give the location, as accurately as you can. Yes, there are all sorts of gadgets designed to tell the 911 call taker where you're calling from. Murphy's Law will strike, and the computer will be down. Or your cell phone will bypass the tower right next door, and be picked up by a tower that you're just at the outer fringe of its coverage. Or you're using VoIP, and their computer screwed up, and the 911 center you reached is the one where the server lives, not your own. (Yes, it's happened.) So give the location, as accurately as you can.

Tell them what's happening. Give as much detail as you can. Try to stay on the line with them as long as possible. Often updates from the caller give the responding officers very important information -- or save time and get them started in the right direction.

But don't be afraid to call the cops because you don't want to get your name involved. You can stay anonymous. And you're in a better position to give the information than if you tell someone else... who may not bother after they hang up.

I second this. Personally, I'm more interested in getting as much info for the officers as I can, rather than forcing someone to give me their name. Of course, the officers do like it when you have a name, to aid them with any follow ups, etc. but again, I can't force someone to give their name.

Some people will give me their name, address and number, but will tell me not to give any of this out on the radio. They'll talk to an officer on the phone if need be.