question about kaiten nage.

[Tempura]

with kaiten nage you rotate the uke around you and the somehow throw them. im just wondering how you get the uke off?

i know that you push his arm towards his other armpit, or that area. with the other hand, the hand thats guiding his neck, do you push down?

 

[theletch1]

kaitenage is actually more of a shoulder lock throw than anything else. I've always preferred to do it one handed and not bother with guiding uke's head at all. The tendency is to push uke's head to the ground to compensate for a poor lock on the arm. The key to a good throw with this wheel throw is to take uke's energy at his wrist and not higher up... it gives you a better fulcrum to throw with. The best example that pops to mind right now is a straight shove to the chest. Uke comes in, you blend to the outside (tenkan) while parrying uke's hand down and around to the back of his hip. Continue this motion as you take uke's arm across his back and up toward his opposite shoulder. Make sure that you're taking his hand across the back and several inches up off his spine. If you allow his hand to lay on his back as you torque you don't get that good quality pain. Match uke's speed through this technique and all is well. Hope this helps. Typing instructions for any technique is tough.

BTW, welcome to the board. When you get a chance head over to the Meet and Greet forum and introduce yourself.

 

[morph4me]

Jeff has pretty much nailed it. A common error for beginners is lifting uke's arm straight up to the shoulder on the same side as the arm, instead of across to the opposite shoulder. What happens when you take the arm across the back to the opposite shoulder is that the shoulder moves forward and down, breaking uke's balance. One uke has passed the point of no return the options are a front roll or a face plant.

 

[Tempura]

thanks for the replies guys.


so i assume your saying you need to push the arm across to the opposite shoulder and down, then eventually the uke will loose alot of balance and fall out of it?


sorry if this seems quite noob. my mind hasn't been working correctly lately.

 

[morph4me]

thanks for the replies guys.


so i assume your saying you need to push the arm across to the opposite shoulder and down, then eventually the uke will loose alot of balance and fall out of it?


sorry if this seems quite noob. my mind hasn't been working correctly lately.

I don't like to think in terms of push or pull. You're connected to his arm and as you turn your body towards his head with your arm in front of you, his arm moves toward his opposite shoulder, if you use the second hand on his neck it's just to keep him from being able to regain his balance, there is no pushing.

 

[ejaazi]

What was said above about the position of the arm is correct, but I might add that the head plays an important part in the throw. Many schools just place the hand on the back of the neck of the uke or even on the head with a downward motion. The way I was taught was to rotate the uke's head so that they are almost looking up at the ceiling while extending their arm at the same time. Most of the time they will be thrown this way and if not, they are locked up pretty tight and you can throw at will by using your body.

 

[morph4me]

What was said above about the position of the arm is correct, but I might add that the head plays an important part in the throw. Many schools just place the hand on the back of the neck of the uke or even on the head with a downward motion. The way I was taught was to rotate the uke's head so that they are almost looking up at the ceiling while extending their arm at the same time. Most of the time they will be thrown this way and if not, they are locked up pretty tight and you can throw at will by using your body.

Interesting, I don't think I've ever seen that variation, am I correct in assuming that you're rotating uke's head towards your body and not toward the shoulder that his arm is moving toward?

 

[charyuop]

I don't understand why placing importance on one hand or the other. In my point of view they are both important. The way I was taught is going in streight in irimi and move both hands together. Both hands draw a spyral movement at the same time. This way when you do the tenkan your hands automatically lower the head and raise the arm. In my opinion it is such spyral motion that takes Uke's balance so that it is enough to walk through him/her to have Uke's balance totally go bye bye.
I agree that at your level you are capable to do it with one hand, but simply placing the importance on one hand or the other in my opinion takes you further from the, not the technique, but the principle.

 

[morph4me]

I don't understand why placing importance on one hand or the other. In my point of view they are both important. The way I was taught is going in streight in irimi and move both hands together. Both hands draw a spyral movement at the same time. This way when you do the tenkan your hands automatically lower the head and raise the arm. In my opinion it is such spyral motion that takes Uke's balance so that it is enough to walk through him/her to have Uke's balance totally go bye bye.
I agree that at your level you are capable to do it with one hand, but simply placing the importance on one hand or the other in my opinion takes you further from the, not the technique, but the principle.

What principle?

 

[theletch1]

I don't understand why placing importance on one hand or the other. In my point of view they are both important. The way I was taught is going in streight in irimi and move both hands together. Both hands draw a spyral movement at the same time. This way when you do the tenkan your hands automatically lower the head and raise the arm. In my opinion it is such spyral motion that takes Uke's balance so that it is enough to walk through him/her to have Uke's balance totally go bye bye.
I agree that at your level you are capable to do it with one hand, but simply placing the importance on one hand or the other in my opinion takes you further from the, not the technique, but the principle.

It's not that I place importance on one hand or the other so much as I find that many aikido-ka have a tendency to try to muscle the technique by pushing down on the back of the neck to effect the throw and that takes away from the balance breaking of the technique. I've seen several variations of the technique from different schools of thought and each of them look very slightly different. The way I do it may be a bit more stacato or -jutsu in that it is both breaking balance and creating the pain of the lock in the shoulder. My goal is to get rid of uke as quickly as is possible to deal with the next potential attacker. The longer I'm in contact with uke the more danger I'm in.

 

[charyuop]

Ok sorry, I had misunderstood. I can't agree more with your point of view then. :headbangin:

 

[charyuop]

What principle?

The principle that you move along with Uke and the flowing of the energy. Not the principle of taking Uke with your muscles and try to overpower him in the bending position because that's where you want him to be to throw him. Per personal experience I have noticed that using one hand most of the time we, of course I am not your levels, tend to disconnect. Not only we disconnect from Uke, but many times we disconnect from ourselves.

 

[morph4me]

The principle that you move along with Uke and the flowing of the energy. Not the principle of taking Uke with your muscles and try to overpower him in the bending position because that's where you want him to be to throw him. Per personal experience I have noticed that using one hand most of the time we, of course I am not your levels, tend to disconnect. Not only we disconnect from Uke, but many times we disconnect from ourselves.

I understand, with more practice and experience you'll begin to understand that the princples involved in a technique don't change, regardless of the method of application, so while Jeff and I and probably quite a few others on the board can do kaiten nage with one hand, we don't sacrifice the principle. Thanks for keeping us honest

 

[ejaazi]

Interesting, I don't think I've ever seen that variation, am I correct in assuming that you're rotating uke's head towards your body and not toward the shoulder that his arm is moving toward?

That's correct. I rotate it until they are almost looking up at the ceiling. WheI'm cutting their arm down, at the same time, I am reaching up to take their head. Then, using my hips, I extend their arm and rotate their head at the same time. They are usually locked up pretty good. But when down with good timing, it has made a couple of people flip right over without me actually having to throw them. If I ever come across a clip of this method, I will post it.

 

[morph4me]

That's correct. I rotate it until they are almost looking up at the ceiling. WheI'm cutting their arm down, at the same time, I am reaching up to take their head. Then, using my hips, I extend their arm and rotate their head at the same time. They are usually locked up pretty good. But when down with good timing, it has made a couple of people flip right over without me actually having to throw them. If I ever come across a clip of this method, I will post it.

I had a chance to work with it last night, by doing it that way I basically ended up protecting uke's head by preventing it from hitting the ground. It's an interesting variation, but protecting my attacker is not something I'm inclined to do, but it did lead us to discover some other variations that are much more devastating than the way we usually do it, and translate well into other techniques that we do :EG:

 

[charyuop]

Here a video would be great...I can't figure out how you turn Uke's head...

 

[morph4me]

You sort of cup the back of his head and straighten out your arm pointing your fingertips toward your one point

 

[ejaazi]

I had a chance to work with it last night, by doing it that way I basically ended up protecting uke's head by preventing it from hitting the ground. It's an interesting variation, but protecting my attacker is not something I'm inclined to do, but it did lead us to discover some other variations that are much more devastating than the way we usually do it, and translate well into other techniques that we do :EG:

We were doing kaitenage in class yesterday, and I was doing it that way. The uke said that he felt really locked up, and by doing it that way, it caused him to 'flip' as he was being thrown. I don't consider it a way to protect the head, but in class, I would want to do that anyway. I'll look for a clip later and post it if I find one.