Purposely Destroying the Nerves in Shins?

[Lynne]

Say what? I have a million questions for you experts!

I was doing a search this morning on google, "martial arts+shin injuries," and I came across a martial arts forum where the members were discussing how to destroy the nerves in one's shins, on purpose.

They discussed techniques such as using some kind of sticks to rolling a metal cylinder up and down the shins. *visions of the Inquisition come to mind*

Is that over the top?

Are tough shins (from dead nerves) tougher than any type of shin guard?

Isn't one allowed to wear shin guards in competition?

Is is sissy to wear shin guards in competition?

Maybe there are certain types of martial arts competitions where you don't wear shin guards? Do kickboxers where shin guards? I can't remember.

What about toughening of the shins? What does that really mean? Does that mean you do sustain some nerve damage? Are you supposed to? If you don't sustain nerve damage to the shins, by what means are they "toughened?"

 

[Andrew Green]

purposely deading nerves is, as it sounds, a stupid thing to do.

Through sparring, kicking pads and heavy bags shins will toughen up over time. hitting them with sticks, rolling them with a rolling pin and other silly things are a bad idea.

Why would people want to? Well, sometimes its the same reason people like driving there fingers into buckets of sand until they start to lose fingernails, or punching hard, solid things until they can't make a fist anymore. They're idiots working hard for a Darwin award.

Shins toughen up naturally as you train. If you spar lots, kick the heavy bag, kick thai pads, etc. They will toughen up, same as the rest of your body. Intentionally banging your shins with a stick or rolling a bottle up and down them is about as smart as banging your head against a brick wall to make yourself harder to KO IMO.

As for shin pads in competition,depends on the competition. Muay Thai, MMA, Knock down, etc. not allowed, or desired as your kicks would hurt less.

 

[Blindside]

Alot of full-contact fighters don't wear shin gaurds. Some arts (like muay thai) prefer to do roundhouse kicks with the big bone in the shin, rather than the small bones of the foot, it would be a bit silly to pad the surface of your striking tool if you don't have to. Also shins are used to block low level kicks, so it would be good to be able to take a solid smack to the shins and not collapse into a whimpering pile. Remember, martial arts are all the time, not just in the ring when you have time to put on the nifty shin pads. The muay thai guys are probably the best known for deadening their shins, but since most of us aren't professional fighters it is largely unnecessary. I do alot of heavy bag work using my shins and that seems to have helped deaden them over the years. I certainly don't feel shin blocks the way I used to.

Some people say that the way the Muay Thai guys train they not only deaden the nerves but strengthen the bones by healing after regular microfractures. This can lead to lots of pain later in life so I wouldn't recommend it.

Lamont

 

[Lynne]

Thank you, gentleman.

Then, can I ask some questions?

My daughter has inflamed shin nerves at the least, so I'm ordering her some shin guards. (She has a numb bruise.)

I would think it would be wise for us to stay after class and hit the Wavemasters? Both of us.

Are there particular kicks that we should practice? Should we do a roundhouse and smack the pad with the fronts of our shins? What about any kick that hits the Wavemaster, such as front kicks? Would they all be useful? What's the best kick to do? What about kicking with the top of the foot?

After my daughter's shins are better, should she continue wearing the shin guards during sparring?

 

[bigfootsquatch]

If your martial art requires you to damage the body through nerve deadening, microfractures, or any other such "training," then you should pick up another martial art. Train the muscles to be hard through strength building exercises. Don't damage the bones!

 

[Last Fearner]

Some people say that the way the Muay Thai guys train they not only deaden the nerves but strengthen the bones by healing after regular microfractures. This can lead to lots of pain later in life so I wouldn't recommend it.

I have intentionally avoided this method for this, and other reasons. However, it is something that I have wondered. For those here at MT who believe in this method (I know it has been attacked, but jump in here anyhow! ), how long has this practice been in use, and are there many examples of older people who might, or might not have problems because of it?

Does the practice of shin toughening change the appearance of the legs? Personally, I would not want visibly bruised, discolored, and calloused shins. I am sure that many females would avoid this kind of training too for that reason.

What can the experts in Muay Thai, and other such arts, tell us about the affects in old age? Are there many people who have reached that point, and do they have problems?

They're idiots working hard for a Darwin award.

Hey! I resent that!
CM Darwin J. Eisenhart :uhyeah:

 

[Last Fearner]

My daughter has inflamed shin nerves at the least, so I'm ordering her some shin guards. (She has a numb bruise.)
Hi Lynne!

After my daughter's shins are better, should she continue wearing the shin guards during sparring?

Any medical questions during training should really be discussed with a doctor, and then reviewed with your instructor. Only someone who can personally examine your daughter's injuries, and is a doctor, would be medically qualified to give advice there.

Wearing shin guards during sparring is a good idea for everyone, especially if you've had previous shin injuries! Some schools (and insurance providers) require full gear when sparring - - even in class. Check with your instructor.

I would think it would be wise for us to stay after class and hit the Wavemasters? Both of us.

Are there particular kicks that we should practice? Should we do a roundhouse and smack the pad with the fronts of our shins? What about any kick that hits the Wavemaster, such as front kicks? Would they all be useful? What's the best kick to do? What about kicking with the top of the foot?

If your daughter has an injury that is not fully healed, kicking any object might be best avoided. Kicking with the shin, even with a pad on is not a good idea until a doctor says it is ok. In the interim, practice forms, and kick in the air. If cleared to kick, use any part of the foot below the ankle. Instep and ball of the foot are fine for roundhouse and front kicks (I prefer them as a tool).

Practice whatever kicks your instructor says you should. There is no "best" kick. Each serves a different purpose and are used in specific circumstances. The front leg front kicks and roundhouse kicks are quick and can damage, but a back leg side kick, or spin side kick (if you are to that level), will have more power but are more noticeable. Timing, deception, speed and accuracy are all important, so train on them all!


Good luck, and stay healthy!
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[pstarr]

How old is your daughter? I don't recommend children under the age of 18 hitting anything (including waterbags) with much force as it can damage bones which are still growing.

Yes, by all means, she should wear shin protection during psarring if the class is such that contact is made against or with the shins.

 

[MJS]

Say what? I have a million questions for you experts!

I was doing a search this morning on google, "martial arts+shin injuries," and I came across a martial arts forum where the members were discussing how to destroy the nerves in one's shins, on purpose.

They discussed techniques such as using some kind of sticks to rolling a metal cylinder up and down the shins. *visions of the Inquisition come to mind*

Is that over the top?

Are tough shins (from dead nerves) tougher than any type of shin guard?

Isn't one allowed to wear shin guards in competition?

Is is sissy to wear shin guards in competition?

Maybe there are certain types of martial arts competitions where you don't wear shin guards? Do kickboxers where shin guards? I can't remember.

What about toughening of the shins? What does that really mean? Does that mean you do sustain some nerve damage? Are you supposed to? If you don't sustain nerve damage to the shins, by what means are they "toughened?"

I'm not a fan of some of the methods that are used, such as using sticks, rolling things on the leg, etc. I stick to the methods of hitting the bags, and as it was said, over time, that area will toughen up. I suppose if someone did want to go the other route, I'd suggest only doing it under the watchful eye of someone who can show the proper conditioning methods.

Thank you, gentleman.

Then, can I ask some questions?

My daughter has inflamed shin nerves at the least, so I'm ordering her some shin guards. (She has a numb bruise.)

I would think it would be wise for us to stay after class and hit the Wavemasters? Both of us.

Are there particular kicks that we should practice? Should we do a roundhouse and smack the pad with the fronts of our shins? What about any kick that hits the Wavemaster, such as front kicks? Would they all be useful? What's the best kick to do? What about kicking with the top of the foot?

After my daughter's shins are better, should she continue wearing the shin guards during sparring?

I'd have it looked at by a Doctor. The shin guards would be a good idea, although until its looked at, I'd try to avoid bag work, sparring or anything that may put that area at risk of being repeatedly hit. No sense in risking further damage.

Mike

 

[Odin]

HMMM this is quite a hard topic.
The way i see it at first you need to address what level you are willing to take your training, and what exactly you want from it, by this I mean if it is just a hobby and you are perfectly happy just doing the training as a hobby then I wouldnt suggest trying to deaden the nerves of your shin....BUT if you are looking to compete and make something more of it then deadening is something that really needs to think thought about.

What it does is makes them shin clashes more bareably, usually the nerves deaden over time during bag work and over such excersises yet some thai fighters take it further by ablying the rolling pin method or boiling wat, it does in all fairness work quite well.

Something i must add though is that this does not strengthen your shin, its just nulls pain.

To make your shin stronger I would suggest playing more attention to the mucles that surround the bone.

 

[Lynne]

If your martial art requires you to damage the body through nerve deadening, microfractures, or any other such "training," then you should pick up another martial art. Train the muscles to be hard through strength building exercises. Don't damage the bones!

It's Tang Soo Do; it's just that shins get banged pretty good in sparring while blocking or when being blocked.

 

[Lynne]

Any medical questions during training should really be discussed with a doctor, and then reviewed with your instructor. Only someone who can personally examine your daughter's injuries, and is a doctor, would be medically qualified to give advice there.

Wearing shin guards during sparring is a good idea for everyone, especially if you've had previous shin injuries! Some schools (and insurance providers) require full gear when sparring - - even in class. Check with your instructor.


If your daughter has an injury that is not fully healed, kicking any object might be best avoided. Kicking with the shin, even with a pad on is not a good idea until a doctor says it is ok. In the interim, practice forms, and kick in the air. If cleared to kick, use any part of the foot below the ankle. Instep and ball of the foot are fine for roundhouse and front kicks (I prefer them as a tool).

Practice whatever kicks your instructor says you should. There is no "best" kick. Each serves a different purpose and are used in specific circumstances. The front leg front kicks and roundhouse kicks are quick and can damage, but a back leg side kick, or spin side kick (if you are to that level), will have more power but are more noticeable. Timing, deception, speed and accuracy are all important, so train on them all!


Good luck, and stay healthy!
CM D.J. Eisenhart

Thank you for taking the time to offer advice I'll probably have to take my daughter to a sports medicine doctor or other specialist (we live in a rural area with a rural clinic). I may take her to a walk-in "emergency" type facility. We often use it when we can't get an apptmt. for days or weeks (it's suggested we do so).

I'm glad you advised not to kick the pads and other objects. My daughter has class tonight and Saturday so we'll be sure to talk with the instructors.

 

[Lynne]

How old is your daughter? I don't recommend children under the age of 18 hitting anything (including waterbags) with much force as it can damage bones which are still growing.

Yes, by all means, she should wear shin protection during psarring if the class is such that contact is made against or with the shins.

She's 17. All of us, adult, young adult or child are encourged to whack the Wavemasters as hard as possible. We are told to, "kill it."

 

[Lynne]

I'm not a fan of some of the methods that are used, such as using sticks, rolling things on the leg, etc. I stick to the methods of hitting the bags, and as it was said, over time, that area will toughen up. I suppose if someone did want to go the other route, I'd suggest only doing it under the watchful eye of someone who can show the proper conditioning methods.



I'd have it looked at by a Doctor. The shin guards would be a good idea, although until its looked at, I'd try to avoid bag work, sparring or anything that may put that area at risk of being repeatedly hit. No sense in risking further damage.

Mike

I'm going to talk with the instructors tonight and ask them to not let her make contact with people/objects.

 

[Lynne]

HMMM this is quite a hard topic.
The way i see it at first you need to address what level you are willing to take your training, and what exactly you want from it, by this I mean if it is just a hobby and you are perfectly happy just doing the training as a hobby then I wouldnt suggest trying to deaden the nerves of your shin....BUT if you are looking to compete and make something more of it then deadening is something that really needs to think thought about.

What it does is makes them shin clashes more bareably, usually the nerves deaden over time during bag work and over such excersises yet some thai fighters take it further by ablying the rolling pin method or boiling wat, it does in all fairness work quite well.

Something i must add though is that this does not strengthen your shin, its just nulls pain.

To make your shin stronger I would suggest playing more attention to the mucles that surround the bone.

I'm sure that my daughter would like to compete at some point.

However, I don't believe that in Tang Soo Do, that it's common to practice extreme techniques for deadening the nerves. We have quite a few national sparring champs, male and female, and I think I'll ask.

You mentioned the area around the bone. I suppose you mean strengthening the muscle (and perhaps even laying down more bone from weight bearing exercise)? How does kicking pads "strengthen" the shin bone? Does the impact lay down more bone? Did you have any specific exercises in mind? Bouncing?

 

[MJS]

I'm going to talk with the instructors tonight and ask them to not let her make contact with people/objects.

While this injury is healing, it doesn't mean she has to stop sparring. This would be a good time to work on other aspects of sparring, such as punching, blocking/bob/weave, etc., and footwork.

Mike

 

[Lynne]

While this injury is healing, it doesn't mean she has to stop sparring. This would be a good time to work on other aspects of sparring, such as punching, blocking/bob/weave, etc., and footwork.

Mike

I doubt the instructors will just let her stand. Good points!

 

[Odin]

I'm sure that my daughter would like to compete at some point.

However, I don't believe that in Tang Soo Do, that it's common to practice extreme techniques for deadening the nerves. We have quite a few national sparring champs, male and female, and I think I'll ask.

You mentioned the area around the bone. I suppose you mean strengthening the muscle (and perhaps even laying down more bone from weight bearing exercise)? How does kicking pads "strengthen" the shin bone? Does the impact lay down more bone? Did you have any specific exercises in mind? Bouncing?

Strictly from a Thai boxing perspective , the bags we used are full of little ball bearings that after time and a couple hundred thousand kicks will dull the nerves over time rather then the extreme quick methods.
Secondly, kicking pads doesnt strengthen the bone but the muslces around it if you imagine a stick of wood the more clay you stick around the wood the more it is resistant to shock and the stonger it becomes.
The way we kick in thai boxing means that you spend alot of time on the balls of your feet which in turn strenthens your claf and the other surrounding muscles.

 

[Lynne]

How old is your daughter? I don't recommend children under the age of 18 hitting anything (including waterbags) with much force as it can damage bones which are still growing.

Yes, by all means, she should wear shin protection during psarring if the class is such that contact is made against or with the shins.

I wanted to make a correction - I don't know how hard or not children are told to whack the Wavemasters and pads! We have one child as young as 12 in our adult class though and he has to do what we're doing.

 

[Lynne]

Strictly from a Thai boxing perspective , the bags we used are full of little ball bearings that after time and a couple hundred thousand kicks will dull the nerves over time rather then the extreme quick methods.
Secondly, kicking pads doesnt strengthen the bone but the muslces around it if you imagine a stick of wood the more clay you stick around the wood the more it is resistant to shock and the stonger it becomes.
The way we kick in thai boxing means that you spend alot of time on the balls of your feet which in turn strenthens your claf and the other surrounding muscles.

Thanks for more perspective, Odin.

Ball bearings, eh? Sounds more civilized, lol.

So you spend a lot of time on the balls of your feet? You know what's amazing? The short period of time that I've spent bouncing on my feet in class (off and on for only three weeks) has really started to develop my calves. I used to do calf raises, seated calf raises and they really didn't work! I had/have strong legs but didn't have the upper body strength to lift the weights I needed to develop my calves. I want to tell the bodybuilders "bounce, bounce, bounce!"