Punching

[MJS]

Many times when people talk about punching, they also bring up the subject of proper hand position. This is mostly regarding the proper alignment of the bones in the hand. Some prefer to punch horizontal, some vertical and some in-between, more on a 45 degree angle.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have a preference?

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many times when people talk about punching, they also bring up the subject of proper hand position. This is mostly regarding the proper alignment of the bones in the hand. Some prefer to punch horizontal, some vertical and some in-between, more on a 45 degree angle.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have a preference?

Mike

I prefer open hand.

I prefer to punch verticle or if the hand was open the thumb would be straight up. This is my preference. I have been hit hard both ways and both ways work. But, I found personally when my hands are up it is easier to just come straight out for the verticle punch and or the hammer fist strike down.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Bagua tends to focus on palm strikes, but when I do punch I prefer to use a vertical fist in the Chinese fashion. Of course, there are circumstances where the attitude of the fist will have to change in order to be affective.

I think that proper alignment of the hand relative to the wrist and forearm is very important so that you don't hurt yourself. This is a definite advantage of palm strikes as it takes this element out of the equation.

 

[MJS]

I prefer open hand.

Same here! Open hand or hammerfist.

I prefer to punch verticle or if the hand was open the thumb would be straight up. This is my preference. I have been hit hard both ways and both ways work. But, I found personally when my hands are up it is easier to just come straight out for the verticle punch and or the hammer fist strike down.

Ditto again. For myself, it feels more natural. Now, I'm no expert on bones, muscles, etc., but if we look at the way our hands are positioned when we stand naturally, they're in the vertical position. Throwing a rising elbow again, the hand is in a vertical position. The hand is positioned as if we're talking on the phone. Turning it any other way, just doesnt feel natural.

I suppose the other thing we should look at is point of contact on our hand.

Mike

 

[searcher]

I teach both the vertical and horizontal punching. If a student hits with the hand at 45 that is fine, but I feel it is that the punch was jammed. Both punches have their place and uses. I try to show the students examples of their use, but then it is up to them to make the determination of when to use them.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Ditto again. For myself, it feels more natural. Now, I'm no expert on bones, muscles, etc., but if we look at the way our hands are positioned when we stand naturally, they're in the vertical position. Throwing a rising elbow again, the hand is in a vertical position. The hand is positioned as if we're talking on the phone. Turning it any other way, just doesnt feel natural.

Its not surprising that it feels unnatural. Just think about the bones in the forearm. With a vertical fist they are parallel. With an horizontal fist they are crossed over. To get them parallel with an horizontal fist you would need to raise the elbow high to the outside. This might explain why so many beginners suffer from "floating elbow" syndrome.

 

[MJS]

Interestingly enough, looking at a boxer, they're throwing horizontal punches right? Granted they have gloves on, but you'd think that if the vertical was more stable....

 

[jks9199]

Depends on the punch, the target, and my goal. I'll throw a vertical fist for some punches, a turn fist for others (palm down or up), and even full twisting fists (rotate from palm up chamber all the way around to thumb down/pinkie up/inverted vertical?) for a few...

Generally, I find forward punches (reverse punch/straight blast type motions) to be faster with a vertical fist, but a turn fist has a different drive to it, and fits in some places that the other wont. Hooks are thrown with any of the three fist positions I mentioned, depending on the target and set up. I broadly find it to be simpler and stronger to use a vertical fist, and it can be used in more positions.

But a lot of that is just me... So long as the wrist/elbow alignment is reasonable, any of them are good.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Interestingly enough, looking at a boxer, they're throwing horizontal punches right? Granted they have gloves on, but you'd think that if the vertical was more stable....

Yeah, it is interesting. Have you noticed when they work the sides of the body their fists tend toward vertical?

 

[MJS]

Depends on the punch, the target, and my goal. I'll throw a vertical fist for some punches, a turn fist for others (palm down or up), and even full twisting fists (rotate from palm up chamber all the way around to thumb down/pinkie up/inverted vertical?) for a few...

Generally, I find forward punches (reverse punch/straight blast type motions) to be faster with a vertical fist, but a turn fist has a different drive to it, and fits in some places that the other wont. Hooks are thrown with any of the three fist positions I mentioned, depending on the target and set up. I broadly find it to be simpler and stronger to use a vertical fist, and it can be used in more positions.

But a lot of that is just me... So long as the wrist/elbow alignment is reasonable, any of them are good.

Good point. Myself, when doing a hook, it feels more natural to me to have it vertical for the body and horizontal for the face.

 

[MJS]

Yeah, it is interesting. Have you noticed when they work the sides of the body their fists tend toward vertical?

Hooking to the body, vertical feels more natural to me, but to the head its horizontal.

 

[Andrew Green]

Many times when people talk about punching, they also bring up the subject of proper hand position. This is mostly regarding the proper alignment of the bones in the hand. Some prefer to punch horizontal, some vertical and some in-between, more on a 45 degree angle.

I think the point is often missed and people focus on the hand rather then what is important, which is alignment.

As soon as you twist the forearm to make it vertical or horizontal you screw that up. Fist angle is dependent on your shoulder. With a fairly straight "karate-like" posture with the shoulders down the natural alignment is somewhere in the middle, that's the best position.

However if you bring your shoulder to your cheek to protect the jaw line when you punch that turns things at the shoulder and makes the punch go more horizontal.

But regardless IMO it should be taught to go out pretty vertical and then rotate at impact, but that has nothing to do with the fist, just keeps the elbow from flaring out which weakens the punch and exposes you.

Hooking to the body, vertical feels more natural to me, but to the head its horizontal.

Hooking to the head horizontal is a bad idea without gloves and well wrapped hands. puts the impact on the smaller knuckles resulting in more chance of boxers fracture.

 

[Hand Sword]

I have heard responses from boxers over the years that add up to about 50/50. One side was punch horizontally, striking with the two large knuckles. The other was also horizontal, but striking with the area of the last 3 knuckles. This keeps everything in proper alignment. The vertical punching I've seen preached by Martial Artists mostly.

 

[Andrew Green]

I have heard responses from boxers over the years that add up to about 50/50. One side was punch horizontally, striking with the two large knuckles. The other was also horizontal, but striking with the area of the last 3 knuckles.

Yes, but boxers train to fight wearing big gloves and taped hands, I imagine if they had to start fighting bare knuckle they'd change there mind

 

[Hand Sword]

Not really, they still do it in a ring or on the street. If that's how you train, that's what you'll do. Besides, a punch is a punch-right? Besides,in all honesty, Boxers are the best strikers there are. They know their stuff !

 

[MJS]

I'm curious to what everyone thinks of the method JKS described in his post. I'm referring to the inverted hook, with the pinky up, thumb down. Not saying this is right or wrong, just looking to further the discussion.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Hooking to the head horizontal is a bad idea without gloves and well wrapped hands. puts the impact on the smaller knuckles resulting in more chance of boxers fracture.

I have heard responses from boxers over the years that add up to about 50/50. One side was punch horizontally, striking with the two large knuckles. The other was also horizontal, but striking with the area of the last 3 knuckles. This keeps everything in proper alignment. The vertical punching I've seen preached by Martial Artists mostly.

Yes, but boxers train to fight wearing big gloves and taped hands, I imagine if they had to start fighting bare knuckle they'd change there mind

I remember a UFC, can't recall the exact one, may have been one of the Ultimate Ultimates, where Ken Shamrock injured his hand and could not go on. If I recall correctly, he was wearing gloves.

 

[Seabrook]

Many times when people talk about punching, they also bring up the subject of proper hand position. This is mostly regarding the proper alignment of the bones in the hand. Some prefer to punch horizontal, some vertical and some in-between, more on a 45 degree angle.

What are your thoughts on this? Do you have a preference?

Mike

Too many martial arts students are taught how to execute a specific strike, with little to no explanation on why it is done that way. The students learn the movement and because their sensei taught them how to deliver the strike, it must be correct. Let’s start simple: a basic punch.

Far too often I see people punching above shoulder height with a horizontal punch (the fist is turned palm down). The reality, however, is that the horizontal punch is anatomically weaker since the ulna and the radius bones of the forearm criss-cross each other, and the forearm muscles are not fully efficient since they are stretched too far. It is no wonder why so many “macho guys” break their wrists in bar fights or on the street!!

So what is the best way to execute a punch above shoulder height? The answer is to deliver a vertical punch, or a rotation just past this position. When doing so, the ulna and radius bones are nicely aligned, and the wrist is less likely to break. Try it and experiment!

 

[Andrew Green]

I remember a UFC, can't recall the exact one, may have been one of the Ultimate Ultimates, where Ken Shamrock injured his hand and could not go on. If I recall correctly, he was wearing gloves.

There where quite a few broken hands back in the early days. Very first fight I believe Gerard Gerdeau broke his hand.

 

[qi-tah]

Interesting discussion! I've always been told that horizontal punches to targets around the shoulders (and higher) are quicker than vertical punches and also have a slightly longer reach. Given the number of drilling exercises i've done in both ba gua and zi ran men, i can appreciate this. Just practicing at home, the horizontal punches at that level feel more powerful than the vertical punches... the kinetic energy feels like it really "snaps" through the shoulder and the elbow more, rather than just the muscles of the arm. Anyone else find this?
But punching to the body i would prefer a vertical fist, probably 'cause it's a closer strike. Also, a lot of punches to the body seem to be angled upwards (diaphram, floating ribs) and this is hard to do with a horizontal fist.

But to be honest, to hard targets i'd prefer a palm strike or an elbow.