Preparing to Fight?

[Nyrotic]

Ok, so as it stands, it seems that many Wing Chunners (Almost regardless of lineage) do not do much in terms of actually preparing their knowledge of Wing Chun to actually use it in a fight.

Many individuals claim that there is no sparring in their system, and upon closer inspection I can understand why that belief may be held. Still, without some sort of full speed/power exercise against a resisting opponent, I find it very difficult to actually use Wing Chun when put under pressure without this sort of training.

So I ask you, what sort of things do you do to prepare you Kung Fu for a fight? Sparring? Drills?

 

[KamonGuy2]

In Kamon we use various techniques to help make the students ready for that confrontation. Of course there is no foolproof way of ensuring that you will win the fight, but generally if you hit hard and can take a hit well, you will do very well

We do a thing called feeding techniques. It starts off (basic level) witha person throwing in a very loose, very slow simple punch. Could be a basic hook or straight punch. As you go up the levels, this drill becomes more and more difficult. The punches your partner throws at you start to get better and more random (including grabs, headbutts, tight hooks etc)
It eventually gets to the level where your partner throws in a full power attack and puts up a guard (resists), meaning that you have to use effective and simple attacks to get in. Of course it is not quite sparring as your partner has to give way a little bit (otherwise it would descend into chaos where the better student would win every time!!)

As I say to my students, the beauty of martial arts is that you get better without even noticing it sometimes. You will be shocked how hard your punches get in a very short space of time, and how quick your reflexes are. I train sparring in karate and the black belts find it extremely hard to get shots in, even though they are far better at karate than I am

We also spar (very basic sparring) at intermediate level in Kamon. This is boxing with wing chun footwork

 

[brocklee]

In Kamon we use various techniques to help make the students ready for that confrontation. Of course there is no foolproof way of ensuring that you will win the fight, but generally if you hit hard and can take a hit well, you will do very well

We do a thing called feeding techniques. It starts off (basic level) witha person throwing in a very loose, very slow simple punch. Could be a basic hook or straight punch. As you go up the levels, this drill becomes more and more difficult. The punches your partner throws at you start to get better and more random (including grabs, headbutts, tight hooks etc)
It eventually gets to the level where your partner throws in a full power attack and puts up a guard (resists), meaning that you have to use effective and simple attacks to get in. Of course it is not quite sparring as your partner has to give way a little bit (otherwise it would descend into chaos where the better student would win every time!!)

As I say to my students, the beauty of martial arts is that you get better without even noticing it sometimes. You will be shocked how hard your punches get in a very short space of time, and how quick your reflexes are. I train sparring in karate and the black belts find it extremely hard to get shots in, even though they are far better at karate than I am

We also spar (very basic sparring) at intermediate level in Kamon. This is boxing with wing chun footwork

So that's what Kamon is? I've been wondering for quite some time now. I just thought maybe it was another one of those "unheard of" lineages. Lol Just goes to show how little I know. How does the footwork work out if you're not remaining square?

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

what sort of things do you do to prepare you Kung Fu for a fight? Sparring? Drills?

Although I don't practice Kung Fu, I believe your question can be applied to any martial arts. Fact is nothing can fully prepare you for using your techniques on the streets no matter how heavily you spar/drill/whatever in the dojo.

generally if you hit hard and can take a hit well, you will do very well

Probably the best piece of advice there. I personally think sparring helps you to gain insight into the way potential opponents will move. So that you begin to grow instinctive and effective responses to them and their aggressive movements. Eventually you'll get sick of being hit while you spar and will get good at not being hit (whether that means hitting first or not).

I suppose it all depends on the individual. We have some really good people who spar at my school, but aren't so great when they're drilling and then vice versa.

 

[Seeker]

I'm good friends with two guys who own a Shorin-Ryu/Kickboxing (PKA rules) school. We all used to study together under the same Sensei.

I go down and spar (friendly sparing) with them and their students at least once a week because we do not spar in WC. The funny thing to note is that the WC just seems to come out while sparing. I never could use the hard Karate blocks, things (in Karate) always seemed to digress into a form of sloppy kickboxing. But the tan, bong, and pak sau among other concepts like angling, sometimes sticking, following the punches back, the footwork... just seem to work for me and I am less than a year in WC.

Not trying to be the sales person for WC, but in my experience, even with the lack of sparing something usable seems to be there in WC. I am a big advocate of sparing, but maybe it is the lack of sparing and the emphasis on drilling and chi sau that helps in the sense that you actually get to work the shapes and reactions into muscle memory without being too preoccupied with avoiding getting clocked.

I dunno.

 

[yak sao]

In the WT that I study, we slowly turn up the heat. If two guys put on the gloves and go at it who have only been training for a short time, then they will revert back to whatever training they had in the past. Reflexes have to be learned. We do a lot of 2 man drills and lat sau type work to give students a chance to build reflexsive responses before going full out.

One thing we do do simulate stres is to do what I call "blitzes".

We'll do 100-200 rapid chain punches followed by 25-50 fast push ups followed by 25-50 rapid situps,while punching, and 25-50 squats while punching

Then we'll do a sparring type drill immediatly afterward while everyone is fighting for air.

 

[martyg]

The funny thing to note is that the WC just seems to come out while sparing. I never could use the hard Karate blocks, things (in Karate) always seemed to digress into a form of sloppy kickboxing. But the tan, bong, and pak sau among other concepts like angling, sometimes sticking, following the punches back, the footwork... just seem to work for me and I am less than a year in WC.

Not trying to be the sales person for WC, but in my experience, even with the lack of sparing something usable seems to be there in WC. I am a big advocate of sparing, but maybe it is the lack of sparing and the emphasis on drilling and chi sau that helps in the sense that you actually get to work the shapes and reactions into muscle memory without being too preoccupied with avoiding getting clocked.

I dunno.

I think you hit on an important concept. A student of mine went through the same thing, I sent him to a Kenpo school that had an open sparring session to get some time in working against people from other arts. He more than held his own, even though he had never done sparring in their sense. In fact they were shocked to learn we don't do a separate "Sparring session" and were wondering how he was able to do what he does then.

The answer is pretty simple, most of the training in Wing Chun is hands on, much more than training in most other arts. Much like "grapplers" and bjj work their art almost entirely hands on and can work it with varrying but actual resistance, etc. They don't need to identify a separate "sparring session" (most of which in other arts winds up being guys just shuffling back and forth doing generic kick boxing and almost nothing from what they trained), since just about everything is built from the context of borderline "sparring" to begin with (though I realize many in BJJ have a "freeform" rolling on the ground - but it still starts just like any of the other material). There's a contextual nature to it rather just "Well, we do all these drills.....and then try and make everything fit together in sparring." Much like the san sik and san sao methods of Wing Chun.

 

[brocklee]

I think you hit on an important concept. A student of mine went through the same thing, I sent him to a Kenpo school that had an open sparring session to get some time in working against people from other arts. He more than held his own, even though he had never done sparring in their sense. In fact they were shocked to learn we don't do a separate "Sparring session" and were wondering how he was able to do what he does then.

The answer is pretty simple, most of the training in Wing Chun is hands on, much more than training in most other arts. Much like "grapplers" and bjj work their art almost entirely hands on and can work it with varrying but actual resistance, etc. They don't need to identify a separate "sparring session" (most of which in other arts winds up being guys just shuffling back and forth doing generic kick boxing and almost nothing from what they trained), since just about everything is built from the context of borderline "sparring" to begin with (though I realize many have a "freeform" rolling on the ground - but it still starts just like any of the other material). There's a contextual nature to it rather just "Well, we do all these drills.....and then try and make everything fit together in sparring." Much like the san sik and san sao methods of Wing Chun.

Great points...and I have to agree that you're right.

 

[matsu]

whilst we dont spar as i did in my karate past, we go through a drill in its traditional sense,then in the real world sense, then if we re picking it up fine we also run through a sports version ie if we were in an MMA ring for example.
this gives us a full spectrum of how to apply many techniques.
and as marty said it gives us more hands on than most other arts
matsu

 

[brocklee]

whilst we dont spar as i did in my karate past, we go through a drill in its traditional sense,then in the real world sense, then if we re picking it up fine we also run through a sports version ie if we were in an MMA ring for example.
this gives us a full spectrum of how to apply many techniques.
and as marty said it gives us more hands on than most other arts
matsu

I'd love to see UFC with no rules and a WC master in it. Just to see how it would compare to MMA in a ring.

I've just been watching UFC 2, 4 and 5 and it's much more fun then the new rules. Only seems to last a minute or so...unless your Royce Grace <sp?>

 

[graychuan]

Sparring is the only agreed way to practice fighting techniques safely in a learning environment. This is true of most martial arts. Interesting thing is if sparring is done too early in martial arts training then a lot of bad habits can be learned because of the lack of time spent with the material and concepts to really be able to use them in a sparring environment. Thus the phrase, &#8216;threw me to the wolves&#8217;.

To be able to spar with WC, Karate, Judo or anything else requires an understanding of the concepts and material of THAT ART. Sparring or fighting too early allows for the beginner to break away or deviate from the principles of that art whenever pressure is applied.
This is also the inherent reason that so many MMA artists dog WC and other traditional styles. Most of these guys just do a few months or year of a style then deem it incomplete and claim they have to add other styles or concepts to be successful. All the while they are only training a few months to a year in these &#8216;other&#8217; styles as well. So we have a collection of incomplete skills, ideas and concepts from an incomplete understanding of the styles or systems that they came from.

As far as the transition to real fighting&#8230;in a fight most of your concentration is on your opponent. That is your stimulus. So, whatever your art, the principles of it should be ingrained to the point where you &#8216;are&#8217; the art instead of you trying to &#8216;do&#8217; the art while fighting. This way the art will take care of itself and you can concentrate on the actual fight.
This type of awareness comes from a long time of developing an understanding of your particular art through drills, chi-sao, pushing hands, kumite, rolling, randori or whatever.

Also it is a good idea, as was mentioned in an earlier post, to spar outside of your style. This prepares you very will for the fighting mindset. However I don&#8217;t advise sparring other styles too early in your development. Sparring with peeps of the same style gives you an opportunity to learn the proper context of all of your movements or techniques with regard to the principles and idea of that style. It&#8217;s wise to be able to make it work in your own dojo or kwoon before going outside the box. After this then it is a good idea (and the next logical stage in progression) to work these techniques and develop them in the context of a free fight/sparring environment with other stylists

So, basically, I&#8217;ve just repeated what everyone else has just said. LOL

Love, Peace & Chitlin Grease,
~Ch'uan~

 

[KamonGuy2]

So that's what Kamon is? I've been wondering for quite some time now. I just thought maybe it was another one of those "unheard of" lineages. Lol Just goes to show how little I know. How does the footwork work out if you're not remaining square?

Kamon is an extremely famous wing chun style in the UK

Our website can be found here…
www.kamonwingchun.com

If you look at the class list you will see how many schools we have.
Master Chan is a pretty tough guy – you can see videos of him training in the media gallery
He is both a BJJ black belt (under Mauricio Gomes) and an extremely proficient boxer/kickboxer. Therefore we tend to get this kind of intense training transfer across to Kamon and it works well

His knowledge of wing chun is extraordinary having trained under Sam Kwok, Steve Mair, Ip Chun and various other teachers, eventually becoming a better chunner than anyone I have ever met.
Please note – I am not saying he is the best in the world, as I have not seen everyone in the world, but he is certainly worth training under if you are a serious wing chun practitioner

He is one of the only Sifus I have seen in London who shows his students how to use wing chun realistically for a confrontation

 

[brocklee]

Kamon is an extremely famous wing chun style in the UK

Our website can be found here…
www.kamonwingchun.com

If you look at the class list you will see how many schools we have.
Master Chan is a pretty tough guy – you can see videos of him training in the media gallery
He is both a BJJ black belt (under Mauricio Gomes) and an extremely proficient boxer/kickboxer. Therefore we tend to get this kind of intense training transfer across to Kamon and it works well

His knowledge of wing chun is extraordinary having trained under Sam Kwok, Steve Mair, Ip Chun and various other teachers, eventually becoming a better chunner than anyone I have ever met.
Please note – I am not saying he is the best in the world, as I have not seen everyone in the world, but he is certainly worth training under if you are a serious wing chun practitioner

He is one of the only Sifus I have seen in London who shows his students how to use wing chun realistically for a confrontation

Sweet, thanks. Is it only available in the UK?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

How do you Train to increase your skill in Wing Chun quickly?

 

[brocklee]

How do you Train to increase your skill in Wing Chun quickly?

um...you don't. No matter how simple the tool visually is, creating a fond understanding of what happens behind the scenes take much time and practice. I believe with WC you have to walk before you can run

 

[qwksilver61]

Ok, I've said this before,many times that I have witnessed actual fights have I rarely seen someone use real technique.Mostly what I've seen is haymakers,tag matches,some pretty good wrestling on the ground,a couple of boxing matches etc.etc.....rarely have I ever seen straight up technique.
Anybody else? I have actually used Tae Kwon Do in a fight the way that it was taught of course with proper control and not an outright viscious attack (meaning,that I understand the effectiveness of pressure points,ie;floating ribs,solar plexus,wrist locks,etc,etc,the measure of a strike vs. an outright takedown,knockout,or a kill),with Wing Tsun,I just simply shut people down without it getting bloody,once with an effective pak and a spade to the throat while bending this person over backwards,and a couple of people who wanted to check out my leg work,banged them up pretty good and never an outright attack(it might be hard to control with a flurry of chain punches,no your opponent is not there to shake your hand).No I do not brag,fighting should be avoided,your'e brain should be engaged,cool common sense should prevail,and most importantly think about the repercussions.I would like to know if anyone here has actually used technique against someone other than the ring?Did you take them out (think,nowaday this could probably get you shot,or jumped by multiple attackers) or did you give them a bee sting? I'm listening? I wanted to add,I believe what I saw once was Choy Lay Fut being used against a street
thug it seemed to work pretty good,he got the snot beat out of him.....

 

[martyg]

Well, I think its a common misconception that you're supposed to fight with "technique". Drills or "techniques" are to give you attributes and abilities that carry over in to application, though often people (in Wing Chun) try to repeat them as if they are paint by numbers solutions and applications in themselves. I can't tell you how many people I've seen try and pull off their drills in application, or become human windshield wipers with "If it didn't work on this side, I'll quick shift and shift to this other side to repeat it here." Or become encyclopedias of drills with "If he does this, I'll respond with this preset combo of nifty responses I drilled in chi sao, but if he does this or that, then I'll do this other set." Or combinations thereof.

When you are in a fight, you're not fighting with Wing Chun. You're fighting with your self. Its you that's doing the fighting, not the art. And I don't see that as just a problem inherent to Wing Chun, but people in all arts are susceptible to it.

 

[matsu]

id like to think i could do a wing chun number on someone who tries it on and i,m sure we have all thought if he does that ,ill do this etc.

sifu has always said if you are threatened keep it simple and strike first.

pre emptive is better than trying to show off with some moves, and in the UK there is a cause for this to be claimed legally as self defense.

i,m sure most of us arent that aggressive and will end up waiting for the other person to attack first, i just hope that my drills and practising have ingrained the basics enough for my instincts to use them rather than just end in in a pub brawl swinging and rolling around the floor.

in fact i cant wait to tie someone up,even if i dont hit,just to see their face when they realise they cant land a strike.

matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

Fights are scrappy. It is extremely rare that you will pull off a very sharp 'clean' technique. A majority of the time you will be attempting to control the situation. In the UFC, the moves look sharper, because both parties are training under set rules and are both good martial artists
But even in the UFC it sometimes deteriorates into scrappy fighting

In the street where your opponent probably doesn't know much martial arts or is fuelled by anger/adrenaline, wild attacks come in which make it difficult to work clean sharp techniques. However, you will still do very well with wing chun, because your hands will be quicker and more powerful than theirs. Your footwork will be better. You will know how to take a hit better. You will know how to relax better. So you already have these advantages at your side.

In all the fights I have had I don't think I've ever looked good doing it. But to be honest I don't mind, as long as I survive!

 

[qwksilver61]

Great responses guys,really, honest answers.I hope we can continue to learn from each other.By the way the fellow using Choy Lay did use technique,the system is geared for street fighting,basic but effective.I used to like watching Bernd Wagner demonstrate how he would use technique against anything people would throw at him,Sifu Emin too.Yes, fighting is not pretty,but personally I believe there are a few individuals capable of executing spot on technique.Again,thank you for the feedback.Were all in this together....