Poll Tax ? *** Picture ID and Proof of Citizenship required

Rich Parsons

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From the following link:
http://www.yahoo.com/s/396872

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Senate Democrats on Friday said legislation that would require voters to show proof of U.S. citizenship to vote in federal elections was little more than a poll tax and urged Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist to stop the bill.

The measure, passed by the U.S. House of Representatives last week largely along party lines, would require voters to present at the polls a photo identification that also proves citizenship for federal elections beginning in 2010.


Republicans said proof of citizenship is needed to crack down on voter fraud and ensure illegal immigrants do not vote in U.S. elections.


Democrats said there is no evidence of widespread abuse and that the cost and effort required to get such a document would discourage poor voters, the elderly and people with disabilities.

. . .


Is it really a Poll tax to be required to have a picture ID (* Required by Law already in the state of Michigan if over the age of 18 *) and proof of citizenship to vote?


Yes there is a cost to getting the ID, but in today's society an ID is required just to get a job or cash a check written to you, or ..., .


So, Is it really a Poll Tax?


On the other side of the coin, is there really an abuse or suspected abuse, and where (* besides Chicago *) is the abuse going on?


Thoughts?
 

Kacey

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I had to show proof of residency (not citizenship) when I registered to vote - and while the standard method of registration in Colorado occurs when you apply for a driver's license, it is not a requirement in Colorado; proof of residency can be as simple as a public service bill with an address in the area served by the polling place. However, I do not have a problem with requiring proof of residency - even for those who do not, for some reason, have a driver's license, a state ID (often issued through the DMV) would do as well. The cost is minimal (although I do realize that for some people, $15 every 4 or 5 years might be hard to come by), and, as you say, identification of that type is required for other things as well - proof of age, identification for checks, etc. I don't have a problem with it.
 

ArmorOfGod

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This issue is a big deal in Georgia right now as well.
Some groups are trying to make it a race issue by saying that making someone show id before voting discriminates against certain races.
What no one will admit is that to attain a state id, it costs about three dollars at the dmv (or you can use your driver's license).
Here is an article about the Georgia issue:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/19/AR2006091901382.html

AoG
 

Makalakumu

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Driver's license, birth certificate, passport...

This is where this is going. If you look at the language in HAVA the rediculously named "Help Americans Vote Act" it says that states must verify to a "high degree" whether or not someone is elligible to vote.

It further defines "high degree" as what I listed above, but includes the word AND...no OR.

These requirements will be implemented in stages, starting with the Driver's license.

The end result of all of this is the disenfranchisement of a large portion of low income America. In Minnesota and Wisconsin, we have one of the highest voter turnouts in the country because we make it so easy for people to vote. All you need here is a friend, who is already on the list, to come and vouch for you.

Because of this, homeless people, the very old, and those with mental illness regularly vote in these states.

This won't happen once HAVA is fully implemented.

Of course, another part of HAVA states that all voting is to be done on electronic voting machines that leave no paper trail. 80% of the voting in 2006 will occur on these machines, because the states have been quietly replacing the old ones.

I predict that "Terrorism" will be the "surprise" issue in 2006 and Republicans will maintain their majority.
 

michaeledward

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As I am sure some on this thread already know ....

You can open the security door on those electronic voting machines with the standard key used in Hotel Mini-Bars. Diebold has gone out of its way to ensure security by make all of the locks on all of the security doors exactly the same, so one key will open all their machines.

AND ...

Once you get that security door open, a standard USB thumb drive can be inserted into the voting machine, and the results on your thumb drive will over right the results on the actual election machine, with no prompts, and no security passwords.

If you got the key, you've got the mojo.


Now, I am not certain I am opposed to a Poll Tax, as a matter of principle and revenue. Yes, it would disenfranchaise some voters. But, if we are going to implement such a tax, let's do it through an open discussion of what it is, and establish an appropriate amount for that tax. Let's not disguise it through a National ID Card (Something my congressional delegation has voted against - to my surprise and pleasure).

I'm surprised the Christians aren't up in arms about this ... Let's make our National ID have a unique 18 character identifier ... maybe broken out into three segments. :0
 

Makalakumu

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I'm surprised the Christians aren't up in arms about this ... Let's make our National ID have a unique 18 character identifier ... maybe broken out into three segments. :0

I'm thinking of a certain Iron Maiden song. Can anyone guess?
 

hongkongfooey

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Number of the Beast? Though, Run to the Hills would also come to mind.
 

Kacey

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Driver's license, birth certificate, passport...

This is where this is going. If you look at the language in HAVA the rediculously named "Help Americans Vote Act" it says that states must verify to a "high degree" whether or not someone is elligible to vote.

It further defines "high degree" as what I listed above, but includes the word AND...no OR.

These requirements will be implemented in stages, starting with the Driver's license.

The end result of all of this is the disenfranchisement of a large portion of low income America. In Minnesota and Wisconsin, we have one of the highest voter turnouts in the country because we make it so easy for people to vote. All you need here is a friend, who is already on the list, to come and vouch for you.

Because of this, homeless people, the very old, and those with mental illness regularly vote in these states.

This won't happen once HAVA is fully implemented.

Of course, another part of HAVA states that all voting is to be done on electronic voting machines that leave no paper trail. 80% of the voting in 2006 will occur on these machines, because the states have been quietly replacing the old ones.

I predict that "Terrorism" will be the "surprise" issue in 2006 and Republicans will maintain their majority.

This same problem is coming up with other issues as well - like Medicaid, which is now requiring similar proof of identification, a difficult issue for the same group of people, and for the same reasons. A search using the terms "proof of identification medicaid" on Google provided a long list of information and concerns.

Unfortunately, there is no good answer to any of these concerns. Obtaining appropriate/acceptable identification is difficult for those most at risk, and also for those most in question, in terms of eligibility, for a wide variety of government services and rights. The issues underlying the rationale, as well as the concerns about the implementation of proof of citizenship/identification, are complex and not easily teased apart into their component issues.
 

Ping898

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Driver's license....

Unfortunetally this is not proof of citizenship, at least currently. There are several states where you can get DL's even if you are not a citizen. Though I have no problem showing ID, I do have a problem with the proof of citizenship part of it and how they plan to impliment it. Seems to me like we keep moving one step closer to National ID cards. I think this will do little to stop people who want to rig elections and all it this is going to do is stop people who would legitamately vote from voting because it keeps becoming more of a hassle.
 

fireman00

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you need to show proof of age that you're over 18 to buy smokes and proof of age when trying to buy adult beverages so why would anyone be concerned that you have to show proof of residency when voting?
 

michaeledward

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you need to show proof of age that you're over 18 to buy smokes and proof of age when trying to buy adult beverages so why would anyone be concerned that you have to show proof of residency when voting?

Because the elderly and poor may be unlikely to have items such as a drivers' license - especially if you don't have a car.

(Can we tell how many of us live in a City?)

As others have said - I don't think we should be anything to create barriers to citizens participating in our form of democracy.
 

hongkongfooey

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you need to show proof of age that you're over 18 to buy smokes and proof of age when trying to buy adult beverages so why would anyone be concerned that you have to show proof of residency when voting?


Because if you have to show proof of residence, you can't vote 5 times in one night.
 

hongkongfooey

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Because the elderly and poor may be unlikely to have items such as a drivers' license - especially if you don't have a car.

(Can we tell how many of us live in a City?)

As others have said - I don't think we should be anything to create barriers to citizens participating in our form of democracy.


That's a non issue. State issued ID cards can be obtained from the DMV. I have yet to meet an elderly person that didn't have identification. The real issue is that there are millions of illegal persons in America. These people are seen as potential votes to the politicians, even though they can't legally vote.

In my state(Maryland) the democrats are in control of the senate and house. We have a republican governor. Certain elected officials in Maryland have proposed a bill that would let illegals have driver's licenses, which in-turn would be sufficient proof they are legal residents of the state. Once they are residents they can register to vote. Nobody checks US citizenship. People have proposed photo ID at the polls, but the same politicians bleat about voter intimidation. The dead also vote in droves in Maryland elections. Ask Glendenning, thousands of dead people voted for him. My father has been dead for 21 years, and I'm sure he votes every election.

If you are a citizen, there should be no issue with proving that you are legally registered to vote. I'm all for it.
 

Ninjamom

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Ditto, HKF -

I live in Maryland, and we have one of the highest voter-turnout-rates among our deceased citizens of any state in the union!

(HKF, where in MD do you live?)
 

RBaddorf

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"Because the elderly and poor may be unlikely to have items such as a drivers' license - especially if you don't have a car."

How do they cash their social security and welfare checks, if they don't have ID?
 

michaeledward

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How do they cash their social security and welfare checks, if they don't have ID?

In our Laissai Fairee Free Enterprise Markets, local 'Check Cashing' stores are a viable business model. For only a 3% commission, you can convert checks to cash at your local corner store. Imagine that ... you're poor, your old, your disabled ... and as an extra benefit, you get to pay for the same **** the more well off get for free. Man, who wouldn't want to be poor in America today?
 

oldnewbie

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I guess I should not be surprised at how many are opposed to proving that you are an american, and therefore have the right to vote in our country.

I have read many posts here that complain about voter fraud, and other issues in elections, (I'm in Florida , for crying out loud), and then when something is proposed, to correct an issue... the uproar begins...

PLLEEAASSEE a poll tax, my ***.

I'm reminded of a bumber sticker .....

"America is being destroyed by those who could not have created it!"
 

mrhnau

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Are we seriously having this conversation? Why should you not be able to prove who you are? Almost everyone has some form of ID, and even if it winds up costing a few bucks, there are TONS of groups out there that would gladly give them that money, especially if they promise to vote favorable to them.

Here are some of the possible reasons why to have it:
Prevents multiple voting
prevents felons from voting (as long as they don't get forged ID's)
decrease in dead voters
finding hard to locate criminals/possible criminals. If they turn out, nab them. Includes felons, dead beat dads, etc.

The deceased voter turnout/multiple voting is exceptionally troubling. If the ID needed to be renewed every few years (like drivers licence) you can hopefully get around this problem.

I don't understand why its so horrible that we need some simple form of identification. A large portion of the population already have them, and its not expensive to get them. The only ones that might be slighted are the dead voters, the criminals and multiple voters. Is it purely circumstantial that the democrats are the ones most in the uproar? Perhaps the ones with the most to lose? I'm sure the elderly can get rides/cash and the poor can find cash too. The NAACP and similar groups will more than likely open their coffers.

I'm surprised the Christians aren't up in arms about this ... Let's make our National ID have a unique 18 character identifier ... maybe broken out into three segments. :0
for me, the jury is still out on that one. National ID is in and of itself meaningless in the prophecy you discuss. However, its a step in that direction. Social Security Number is already a unique identifier, so a national ID card would not be a dramatic step. Obtaining a global identifier is a next step. Personally, I'd be more concerned with steps leading towards a cashless society. Thats not really related to voting though...
 

hongkongfooey

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Ditto, HKF -

I live in Maryland, and we have one of the highest voter-turnout-rates among our deceased citizens of any state in the union!

(HKF, where in MD do you live?)


Baltimore County. Wilson Point area.
 

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