Political Arrogance

[pkozub]

Hello,
I have posted on this site before as MartialArtist68 and have reincarnated as "pkozub68". I have done a lot of soul-searching over the past few months and my views have changed on some things.

This time I would like to take a different perspective on the "War On Terror". Now, I consider myself a pseudo-liberal, and that should be quite evident in my (hopefully) upcoming posts. However, I feel that it is necessary to take a different perspective on how we have imposed our form of government on a people that are used to a dictatorship. Yeah, that's right, I actually have a <i>reason</i> for hating the war. I do not deny that Hussein is/was a sick and twisted individual, but he was their ruler, and for the time being it was working. Think about it: why is our government better than their's? Because we have proof? NO! There's just as much corruption as there is anywhere else! My point is this: "democracy is the best" is an OPINION, not a FACT. Let's seperate these two, G.W.

Best Wishes,
P. Kozub

 

[Phil Elmore]

You know, you're right -- asserting that a totalitarian dictatorship is preferable to allowing a group of people to govern themselves is pretty arrogant.

 

[pkozub]

Perhaps I should have chosen a better title... I meant "arrogance" in that we assume that we're the best and that we know what's right just because it's what we're doing. (eyes cross in embarassment, cat attacks my face)

pck

 

[Phil Elmore]

You're absolutely right. It's arrogant to assume everyone can govern themselves; some people are so stupid or so subhuman that they deserve to live with their necks under the boot of a violent dictator who regularly maims and murders them at whim. Some people just can't handle self-government. It would be pretty arrogant of us to force freedom down their throats like they were... well, our equals, or something. Thanks for setting us all straight on that.

 

[pkozub]

I did not mean it that way. The Iraqis are legitamate souls and are no better or worse than Americans or Canadians etc., etc. The point is that WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT'S BEST FOR THE WORLD. That's my beleif, anyway. Bush is like that little knowitall on the playground that thinks he/she is better than everybody else. Like I said, it's just my opinion. I am not implying that they Iraqi people are stupid or not worthy of what we perceive to be a decent government. Just so we're clear...

pck

 

[pkozub]

And I'm NOT excusing Hussein's actions. Murder is NEVER acceptable.

 

[Phil Elmore]

No, no, you're absolutely right. Just the other day I read an account of a father molesting his underage daughter, and I thought, "Wow, that strikes me as wrong, but... who am I to judge? It would be arrogant of me to presume to know what is best for that child. Some daughters simply cannot handle making their own sexual decisions and it's better if their fathers do it for them."

I can't imagine the arrogance with which I would presume to tell an Iraqi woman that the right to vote is right for her over, say, being locked in a rape room presided over by one of Saddam Hussein's sons. Who am I to force such freedom on someone?

 

[Bammx2]

ya know...I ubderstand both sides of this debate,

but (of course)...both side are right and wrong.
I'm a vet and I do know that we were sent places we had no reason being there to "straighten" things out for people....what a crock."Company" work usually is.
I know of places we SHOULD have gone to straighten things out and didn't.
I do belive the world would have reacted better if G.W would have said "we're invading iraq cause sadam is an a$$hole" cause he was and is and needed his teeth kicked in!
But on the other hand....
The soviet union has given the whole "democratic" thing a try and it has pretty much failed for them.
Hence the reason Putin is reforming the KGB.
Its kinda like putting a man in a 10x10 room for 20 years and he walks the the perimeter for the whole time, cause thats all he's allowed to do,but he is fed and taken care of...
Then an outsider says "I'm changing that cause its wrong" and he blows down the walls....the man is STILL gonna walk a 10x10 pattern cause thats all he knows and he's comfortable with it regardless of what the "outsider" believes.
People get comfortable with those 4 walls no matter how bad it is and don't want to know whats on the outside regardless of an outsiders opinion.
So who's right and who's wrong?

 

[Phil Elmore]

Some people just can't handle freedom. Think about how arrogant Lincoln was -- forcing freedom down people's throats. So many slaves and former slaves and sons and daughters of slaves have experienced so much hardship since then, they would have been better off staying slaves... right? I mean, who are we to tell them what is best for them?

 

[FearlessFreep]

What if a democracy; what if the free choice of the people, if for a monarchy, or a theocracy, or a benevolant despot?

One reason we (in America) have both a republic and the bill of rights is to protect against 'tyranny of the majority'; to prevent the will of the majority from overcoming the basic rights of the minority, but that's particular to our current system, our similar systems. That's not really inherent in democracy.

If a democracy freely choose a theocracy or a monarch, could we say that it was wrong? We might disagree with the results, but I don't think we could disagree that it was the will of the majority of the people.

 

[pkozub]

That makes sense. But should we make that decision for other people?

 

[Phil Elmore]

Anytime we see evil, we should ignore it. After all, who are we to decide?

 

[pkozub]

What's your problem? Are you so arrogant that you have to be sarcastic and idiotic just to make a point?

 

[Tgace]

He makes a point though....

 

[Flatlander]

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[Phil Elmore]

What's your problem? Are you so arrogant that you have to be sarcastic and idiotic just to make a point?

I was agreeing with you. I am, in fact, agreeing with you in order to show you the arrogance of your opinion by taking that opinion to its logical conclusion and applying it consistently as a philosophy.

 

[Bester]

Phil,
Please, show us where, legally, in any of the following foundation documents it says that America should interfere in the internal affairs of other nations?

Declaration of Independence
Articles of Confederation
US Constitution

You can't.

This nation was founded in part, because we wanted to run things ourselves. We had minimal help getting there. The bulk of the fight was done by us. The French did not invade us to free us. We freed ourselves. Why should we force our ideas onto someone else?

If, Iraq truely deserved freedom, if Iraq really wanted it, they would have started the ball rolling themselves. Then, if they asked us to assist, we could have. But that's not what happened.

You argue that there was evil there and we were right to intervene. Fine. How many other nations are just as evil, or worse? Where will it end? Will we only "free" nations that have something to offer us in return like oil or mineral wealth? Why have we not freed North Korea, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, etc? What about Somalia? Remember Somalia? That nation makes war-torn Iraq look like LA. Why aren't we freeing them, and showing them the wonders of McDonalds?

Americans are one of the most "in your face" people around, thinking they are right, and the rest are wrong. We look at the world as backwards, and the world looks at us as bullies. Maybe we should clean up the problems here first, before trying to tell the rest of the world how to do things.

You know, like those bums you hate so much. Can't we put them in some death camp? You can even run the ovens Phil. Bet that warms the ol heart eh?

When America eliminates poverty, unemployment and crime, When every citizen has health care, shelter and food, and when our governments are lean and mean and running the way they were intended, then, and only then will America have something to be proud of. Until then, it has no right telling others how to live, when it can't even live right itself.

Then again, maybe Mr. Elmore would like to enlist? He can be at the forefront of our Furher's attempt to build an Amirikan Empire? What say you Phil? Going to enlist soon and free the world? Or just keep talking out your *** as usual?

 

[Ceicei]

Sharp Phil,

You're a master at baiting. There are excellent points made in this thread and it does bring to the forefront our societal perspectives and bias. Yet, do we have a right to stand aside? Do we have a right to get involved? Or is our political stance even a right? :idunno: Where did we get the idea that we have a social responsibility for the world?

- Ceicei

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh-oh, an agreement with both of the last two posters. And a wish that Americans would come up to the moral and intellectual level expressed in"Star Trek," discussions of the Prime Directive. Together, of course, with a recognition that what he has fallen in love with all unknowing, and is espousing with a fervor seldom seen outside discussions of gay marriage, is the elevation of capitalism to the level of just and necessary doctrine for any and all societies.

As always, three snaps up with a copy of Twain's, "To the People Sitting in Darkness," and as well, a hope for a future I learned from Heinlein novels, in which each man sitteth under his own vine and fig tree, with none to make him afraid.

See? The devil CAN quote Scripture.

 

[pkozub]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a similar paradox come up in Plato's "The Republic"? The people in the cave that only see the shadows reflected off the cave wall? Or am I completely nuts?

pck