Police Baton too rough today?

JohnEdward

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
740
Reaction score
24

I thought that there was a police forum, I might over looked it.

Here we have police baton tactics that would raise all kinds of hell today. There is allot criticism with police using tasers which is far less abrasive than this video. Any comments?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
The Police Baton is not too Rough.

Why not take away the Police Guns, Tasers, Batons, and Cuff their Hands, and Ankles, just incase they Hurt a Perpetrator, whilst Preventing them from Proceeding with their Crimes?

Force is Necessary. How much is Argueable.
With What, is Irrelevant. If theyre Trained well enough, the Officer should be in Full Control of how much Force he Delivers.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
1963? Wow. I see nothing wrong with the tactics used. They are not being taught to use the baton as a bludgeon to replace a 2x4 plank. They are simply being taught techniques to protect and disable. You attack a policeman, you must expect the policeman to protect himself and effect an arrest. A policeman is allowed to use greater force in all jurisdictions I am aware of, but in the example given, he has two attackers anyway.

The baton is not going to work every time with every person. I've never used a tazor, but I am told there are those who can fight that off as well. What isn't being taught in the video is any technique to trap/pin an arm. That was LA, where was Bong Su Han? ;-)

Is what is described not allowed where you are?
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,588
Reaction score
622
Training with the baton has evolved since then, and has even made great leaps since early 90's. For example, in the early 90's, LAPD was taught to give "power strokes" to the elbow and knee joints to put an attacker down. Now, most agencies teach to hit nerve clusters that won't have the chance to cause injury.

But, it is not too rough. Like every tool an officer has, there is a time and place for it. Personal story. While assigned at a school, there was a gang fight in the parking lot at dismissal time. I had about 450 students in the area going to their buses or walking to their car. One of the people had a knife, so I chose to deploy my baton instead of a firearm due to the amount of students and no clear shot really if it did get to that point. As I was running up, the four people who were involved saw me pull out the baton and snap it open. All of them took off running and the person with the knife threw it away immediately and also took off running.

It could have gotten alot worse, but there is something very intimidating to many people when they see that snap open and many times it is enough to control the situation.
 
OP
J

JohnEdward

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
740
Reaction score
24
Agree to all, and maybe I should of phrased it like this, with all the public controversy surrounding police force, like that surrounding the use of tasers being too harsh or too extreme, I don't think the use of the baton both in application and philosophy as in the video would ever be acceptable today because of the public feeling police don't manage well the force they use. The public thinks the police now are too rough on the public especially using tasers, the video is far more forceful with the use of a baton. I think the baton use demonstrated in the video would start riots (figuratively speaking) if a cop did any of those techniques today on someone.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
21,949
Reaction score
2,155
Location
Northern VA
Agree to all, and maybe I should of phrased it like this, with all the public controversy surrounding police force, like that surrounding the use of tasers being too harsh or too extreme, I don't think the use of the baton both in application and philosophy as in the video would ever be acceptable today because of the public feeling police don't manage well the force they use. The public thinks the police now are too rough on the public especially using tasers, the video is far more forceful with the use of a baton. I think the baton use demonstrated in the video would start riots (figuratively speaking) if a cop did any of those techniques today on someone.
Baton use as shown in the video is, for the most part, consistent with current training. The chokes are less commonly taught today because they're often placed closer to lethal force, if only due to perception. And the thrusts with the tip aren't as commonly taught since many officers carry and use friction lock collapsible batons like the Asp which have a tendency to collapse if used that way.

But police use of force today is scrutinized differently. More is caught on video, and the reality of violence is that it's ugly. It's seldom what the uninitiated -- or even a lot who think they are initiated, like many martial artists -- think it looks like, based on movie, tv, and sterile training hall experiences. There's also a lesser societal tolerance for use of force at all right now... There was a time, not too long ago, when the idea of someone resisting a cop was automatically assumed to equal injury. Now -- that's not tolerated. Cops are expected to use controlled force, and can expect to be on the news -- if not facing charges -- if someone gets hurt due to police use of force. (I'm not arguing whether these changes is good or bad at the moment; that's a different discussion.)

The solution is education. Citizen academies, hands on exposure sessions for reporters, and active and thorough discussions about videos and things that show up on YouTube and other places are all part of that. There's a reason I've seldom said "I don't want to discuss that video..." on this forum. If I take a few minutes and explain why I don't (or do!) have problems with a particular video showing cops using force, than there's a few more people with maybe a different take on it. I don't reach everyone; we've had and continue to have some members here that simply and clearly distrust, dislike, and generally disapprove of law enforcement. Some of them have had their views shaped by personal negative experiences. Others are simply more philosophically opposed. A few are just bullheaded and don't care; cops are bad.
 
Last edited:

Monroe

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
371
Reaction score
2
Location
Nomad
I didn't see a problem with the techniques on this video. I don't have a problem with police using force. I've seen a few situations where I think that force may have been used too soon or in the wrong situation. But generally speaking, resisting arrest is a dumb move.
 

seasoned

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
10,687
Reaction score
677
Location
Somewhere out there
The solution is education. Citizen academies, hands on exposure sessions for reporters, and active and thorough discussions about videos and things that show up on YouTube and other places are all part of that. There's a reason I've seldom said "I don't want to discuss that video..." on this forum. If I take a few minutes and explain why I don't (or do!) have problems with a particular video showing cops using force, than there's a few more people with maybe a different take on it. I don't reach everyone; we've had and continue to have some members here that simply and clearly distrust, dislike, and generally disapprove of law enforcement. Some of them have had their views shaped by personal negative experiences. Others are simply more philosophically opposed. A few are just bullheaded and don't care; cops are bad.
Educating the public is very instrumental in law enforcement perspective. In my area there have been civilian police academies held where participants engage in scenarios encountered by law enforcement, along with class room time geared toward a day in the life of a police officer. Very beneficial.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
21,949
Reaction score
2,155
Location
Northern VA
Educating the public is very instrumental in law enforcement perspective. In my area there have been civilian police academies held where participants engage in scenarios encountered by law enforcement, along with class room time geared toward a day in the life of a police officer. Very beneficial.
I've found it very interesting the difference in perspective from reporters and others who have done a few hands-on scenarios in firearms simulators or DT settings. Generally -- a lot of illusions get busted about how things happen.
 

Drac

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
143
Location
Ohio
The baton is not going to work every time with every person. I've never used a tazor, but I am told there are those who can fight that off as well. What isn't being taught in the video is any technique to trap/pin an arm. That was LA, where was Bong Su Han? ;-)

I carried a Tazer and never used it. My baton worked everytime. Fighting off a Tazer? I did see one well seasoned martial artist/LEO fight off the effects of the first generation Tazers, he surprized the reps from Tazer International who explained that the battery was probably low. The officer told them to pop in a fresh one and he did it again. When the 2nd generation Tazers came out he tried it again and he lost..

While in the Tazer certification class he had this big hulk volunteer to take a full hit, barbs and everything.He went down like a ton of bricks, as soon as they swithed off the " juice" he was ready to fight again. So I guess there are some that can recover faster than others.
 

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
I carried a Tazer and never used it. My baton worked everytime. Fighting off a Tazer? I did see one well seasoned martial artist/LEO fight off the effects of the first generation Tazers, he surprized the reps from Tazer International who explained that the battery was probably low. The officer told them to pop in a fresh one and he did it again. When the 2nd generation Tazers came out he tried it again and he lost..

While in the Tazer certification class he had this big hulk volunteer to take a full hit, barbs and everything.He went down like a ton of bricks, as soon as they swithed off the " juice" he was ready to fight again. So I guess there are some that can recover faster than others.
You just reminded me of something.

A few months ago, I witnessed an Arrest of a Drunk waving a Brick around. He was quite Hostile, and an Officer shot him with a Taser.
He grabbed the Barbs, whilst hunched right over, and pulled them out, and was able to attempt to fight off Arrest.

He failed, but the fact he just pulled them out, is interesting.
He had a small amount of Blood coming out though, so i imagine hed have been pacified as a result of removing them, after a while.
 
OP
J

JohnEdward

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
740
Reaction score
24
The thing I see, unprofessional on the side of the taser, is baton takes time to learn with a learning curve. It has the potential as a result of the lack of proper training or degradation of skill to inflict greater injury. A baton is effective and safe given the proper techniques, but the learning curve, the training time, and skill proficiency time, and skill maintenance time required to use the baton safely and effectively is greater than a taser. Baton is close quarters instrument, taser is various range. The new tasers like the Taser X2 ECD is leaps and bounds beyond its predecessors. It looks far more less brutal than a baton. If Rodney King was tased say once would there have been a riot? Meaning tasing looks more humane to the public than employing baton techniques as seen in the video. In those days, the public found those techniques more acceptable than today. Of course the Rodney King incident was a turning point publicly. I not stating an opinion. I am just noting historical events that effected society perspectives on batons.

Just an added thought, now tasers are capable of firing multiple shots. They are being developed to have the same capacity, performance and handling similar to a fire arm. I can see a huge public back-lash if someone is killed by such a taser where multiple shots fired kills someone, or badly injures. But the advancement of technology I believe will avoid that. That is something you can't do with a baton. Am not auguring anything, am merely making an observation.
 
OP
J

JohnEdward

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
740
Reaction score
24
You just reminded me of something.

A few months ago, I witnessed an Arrest of a Drunk waving a Brick around. He was quite Hostile, and an Officer shot him with a Taser.
He grabbed the Barbs, whilst hunched right over, and pulled them out, and was able to attempt to fight off Arrest.

He failed, but the fact he just pulled them out, is interesting.
He had a small amount of Blood coming out though, so i imagine hed have been pacified as a result of removing them, after a while.

He may have been able to pull them out because he had thick or dense material clothing on. Or he could have been just enough out of range where the barbs didn't or barely penetrate deep enough. From the limited knowledge I have of taser this is an issue in terms of effectiveness. As I mentioned earlier, taser manufactures are able to develop better technology for tasers to clear those effectiveness issues.
 

Drac

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
143
Location
Ohio
The thing I see, unprofessional on the side of the taser, is baton takes time to learn with a learning curve. It has the potential as a result of the lack of proper training or degradation of skill to inflict greater injury. A baton is effective and safe given the proper techniques, but the learning curve, the training time, and skill proficiency time, and skill maintenance time required to use the baton safely and effectively is greater than a taser. Baton is close quarters instrument, taser is various range. The new tasers like the Taser X2 ECD is leaps and bounds beyond its predecessors. It looks far more less brutal than a baton. If Rodney King was tased say once would there have been a riot? Meaning tasing looks more humane to the public than employing baton techniques as seen in the video. In those days, the public found those techniques more acceptable than today. Of course the Rodney King incident was a turning point publicly. I not stating an opinion. I am just noting historical events that effected society perspectives on batons.

Yeah, baton training takes time and practice. I remember when the side handle batons came out and everybody wanted one. The problem was ya couldnt purchase one unless you showed a certificate of training or were already a sworn LEO..I know officers tha have spent hours practicing drawing their sidearms and never touched their baton.

Just an added thought, now tasers are capable of firing multiple shots. They are being developed to have the same capacity, performance and handling similar to a fire arm. I can see a huge public back-lash if someone is killed by such a taser where multiple shots fired kills someone, or badly injures. But the advancement of technology I believe will avoid that. That is something you can't do with a baton. Am not auguring anything, am merely making an observation.

My favorite is the ones with the built in cameras. It is a great tool when the dirstbags stands before the judge all cleaned and pressed and the Tazer-Cam shows what the officer delt with when he arrived on the scene...
 
OP
J

JohnEdward

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
740
Reaction score
24
I think baton is a thing of the past, and so will be conventional sidearms, both being replaced eventually by tasers or similar technology. Because the new technology will not be deadly and it's potential for serious injury greatly reduced. And what Drac said.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
21,949
Reaction score
2,155
Location
Northern VA
I think baton is a thing of the past, and so will be conventional sidearms, both being replaced eventually by tasers or similar technology. Because the new technology will not be deadly and it's potential for serious injury greatly reduced. And what Drac said.
Not until it reaches the level of something like Star Trek's phaser. I think we will see some sort of Taser that is more self contained, no wires and longer range, in the next several years. Not fired out of a shotgun -- but out of a more standard handgun platform. But, just like so many generations have thought that they'd see the end infantry or the bayonet... but they're both still around... You won't see an end to batons or handguns. They all have roles in the use of force.
 

Cyriacus

Senior Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2011
Messages
3,827
Reaction score
47
Location
Australia
Not until it reaches the level of something like Star Trek's phaser. I think we will see some sort of Taser that is more self contained, no wires and longer range, in the next several years. Not fired out of a shotgun -- but out of a more standard handgun platform. But, just like so many generations have thought that they'd see the end infantry or the bayonet... but they're both still around... You won't see an end to batons or handguns. They all have roles in the use of force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIXH1MSPf8

Of course, the other side to Tasers is that you can Torture People with them, with a Lesser Risk of Inflicting Permanent Injury.
Isnt that Funsies :)

The Wielder of the Baton decides the Level of Force.
The Wielder of the Taser can just as easily Curb Stomp someone as he can Cuff them, after hes Tased them, assuming the Taser does its Job.

And besides. We already have Shotgun Pistols.
 

Monroe

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
371
Reaction score
2
Location
Nomad
Cyriacus, that video is so sickening to watch. 13 times?
 
Top