Picking Fights With Strangers

[Shifu Steve]

Pardon the misleading title:

So some time ago I had to move for work and lost my training partners in the process. I had just earned the rank of teacher then and thought about looking for students but my schedule was so erratic I decided it wouldn't be fair to them so I went in search of people to spar with just to keep the skills sharp. I went into a few dojos (all different styles) and asked if they had an appropriate time where I could come and spar (free style) with the teacher and/or students. I figured they would jump at the chance because my background was different than theirs and maybe we could all learn something from that difference. I went 0 - 4 on takers and was told I'd need to sign up for the school if I wanted to spar them. Keep in mind I approached whoever ran the school so as not to appear I was trying to siphon off students. One school told me I could but they did competition sparring with what I considered too many rules and pads to make it worth my while. None cited any legal concerns (litigation if someone was hurt) but just basically informed me they didn't do that. In your experience is this an unusual request?

When I was part of a more formal training structure we regularly invited that kind of friendly interaction and used it as a tool to learn something about how martial artists from different backgrounds approached a fight (albeit a slower paced and controlled fight).

 

[dancingalone]

Well I'm all for realistic, live sparring against a variety of partners from different systems, but you're asking for quite a lot. They don't know you from Adam and liability issues aside, you're asking the teacher to TRUST you with his students. I'm sure you're a good person who just wants to spar in good, clean fashion, but you can see the inherent problems right? Approaching an established school is probably not the best avenue. You should look for a boxing/MMA gym or look for an informal training group.

Where are you located? I participate in a training group where people from a variety of training disciplines all get together every couple of months or so for sparring and technique sharing.

 

[Shifu Steve]

Where are you located? I participate in a training group where people from a variety of training disciplines all get together every couple of months or so for sparring and technique sharing.

I actually don't live in the area I was referring to in the earlier post. Now I'm in NYC and I train with one of the other teachers from my old school in Central Park. I also have had students as my schedule has become more regular. However, at the time I was a solo act and I think you're right, an MMA gym would have been ideal.

I do understand your point and I should have clarified, my ultimate goal was to spar the teacher or some of the more advanced students during non-class time. However like I said, at the time I would've sparred anyone just becuase I didn't have anyone to train with. In my mind it seemed like a worthwhile thing to do. I eventually solved the problem by trading skills with some boxers.

 

[Grenadier]

In your experience is this an unusual request?

In my experience, yes, it is. There is little to be gained by accepting a challenge match from a stranger coming into my dojo.

Maybe I'm a bit wary about this, but after reading about the old days of John Timothy Keehan, it's simply too much of a liability issue. Even if those guys didn't mention about such things, you can darn well bet that none of them want any potential legal actions against them.

If you want to challenge me to a sparring session, then it has to be done under controlled circumstances. The way I see it, if you're willing to join the dojo, become a student, and train your way to the advanced class, then you will have picked up a good understanding of how we operate, and will have built up a lot of trust from me. At that point, I would be very eager to learn from you, since I know that you can be trusted.

Either that, or I would have to know you from various martial arts seminars, and if I knew that you had good control, then that would go a long way towards establishing trust. I don't trust the control of unknown strangers.

Trust is a very important issue. I don't mind trading shots in a hard sparring session, but I will not partake in an informal session where someone has virtually no control, or is out to prove how tough he is. I'd rather not even let it get that far in the first place.

 

[Blindside]

My old school in Wyoming had an open door policy for our Tuesday night sparring classes. We made it clear it wasn't full contact (though hard contact was fine). We also started any new person to our circle against the black belts who could gauge the person and protect themselves from guys who were either over aggressive or simply lacked control.

We did it because we got bored fighting each other every week. We had Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, and others dropping in. Nice way to keep some spice in the sparring.

The kempo school that I help at now is "invite only" which I understand. I really haven't seen drop ins to spar in the FMAs which I primarily teach now.

 

[Shifu Steve]

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Trust is a very important issue. I don't mind trading shots in a hard sparring session, but I will not partake in an informal session where someone has virtually no control, or is out to prove how tough he is. I'd rather not even let it get that far in the first place.

I am definitely not talking about an out of control situation nor one where anyone has anything to prove. If that's what you took away from the post than you're mistaken. The point I'm trying to make is more of a healthy exchange of technique and the execution of that technique; controlled and professional. Now you can make the point that you don't know the person coming in making this request so how can you trust them but I'm not talking about somebody coming into your dojo and calling you out. I'm talking about a person asking to exchange some information and benefit from sparring someone outside of their background. Can you guarantee that the person isn't a maniac? Of course not, but anyone that takes the time to have a conversation, ask for an appropriate time and venue and discuss their background probably isn't looking to attack you. Anyway, there are some safeguards that can be put in place to help make sure that things stay friendly.

Regardless, maybe it is an unusual request and one that's not worth entertaining for some people. The liability issue is obvious and any reasonable business would have to consider that so maybe there it's a forgone conclusion. Back when I trained under a roof we would informally spar other martial artists, even some we didn't know. For me it was always a positive experience and one where I learned something.

 

[Grenadier]

I'm talking about a person asking to exchange some information and benefit from sparring someone outside of their background. Can you guarantee that the person isn't a maniac? Of course not, but anyone that takes the time to have a conversation, ask for an appropriate time and venue and discuss their background probably isn't looking to attack you.

You are correct, that those who are civil are probably not going to attack you. However, in my case, I simply prefer not to take that chance, and would rather be much more sure of who I am dealing with.

You can have 49 positive experiences with such people, where you can learn from them, but it only takes one individual to wreak some major havoc on your organization.

I've encountered one fellow who wished to spar from day one. He was quite polite and civil, but despite this outer calm demeanor, he was known to be a loose cannon at other places he had visited. I told him "sorry, but we can't do that until you join," and he left to visit another place. After he had issued a sparring request to a dojo nearby, and they let him spar, he ended up breaking his own foot with a badly timed kick to someone's leg, and tried to sue them.

Of course the school is going to win such a lawsuit, but the wasted time and $$$ defending yourself in court is simply not worth taking the chances.

As someone who will like to eventually own the dojo, I cannot take that chance, no matter how small.

 

[blindsage]

Most schools don't do this. I found one school in my area that has regular open sparring and go there for that. From that I've been invited to come to the local Kyokushin school and spar with them, though I haven't taken them up yet. I've also thought about starting a seperate unaffiliated training group with sparring, but I'm not ready to do that at this point.

 

[MA-Caver]

"Nobody walks into my Dojo and drops a challenge...."
​

~Sense' Kreese of the Cobra Kai (Karate Kid)

Ok, a bit over stated but basically the point that several others had made already here. Walking into a reputable school and asking to spar... with the students? Why not the instructors who are more highly trained/experienced to handle a style not thier own?

A few years ago I recall a 17 year old guy who was briefly a member of MT. Basically he thought after training for a few years that he was THAT GOOD and asked the members here to invite him over to their respected schools and let him spar with their best student/instructor... he knew that he was THAT GOOD... basically everyone here turned him down flat... and he had some unflattering things to say to everyone before he was banned... (anyone remember the kid?)... anyway.

You really want to do this then get to know the instructors first and chat with them instead of saying "I want to spar with some of your people. No matter how nice you say it... it can come off as a challenge. A true reputable instructor will turn you down every time.

The advice that others have given you are good ones.

 

[jks9199]

I don't know how you went about doing this... but it's not typical. It seems rather as if you pretty much went in and said "Hey, I just wanna fight people... you up for it?"

Think about it for a minute; were someone to walk in, claim rank in something you may never have heard of and ask to fight... especially if you've got a business to run and protect (liability more than anything else)... how's that going to go over?

Someone else recently posted about an experience where they attempted to train in a school as a beginner despite a very solid background; comments there may be relevant to your question, as well.

It's also very different to walk into a place, explain who you are and offer to work together to find a time to work out and explore each other's systems... (I've been trying for over a year know with one guy, who's interested, but we just can't mesh the schedules!)

 

[wushuguy]

yeah, walking in like that sounds arrogant and like you're picking a fight. i think better is to post on craigslist what kind of people you're looking to practice with, that way you can get willing participants and you guys will know a bit about each other's expectations first.

 

[Shifu Steve]

Further points for clarification:

1) I asked if the school had an open sparring night. Some do and I think it’s a great idea.
2) If it did not, I asked if the instructor cared to work out, exchange technique and/or spar.
3) I never asked to spar a student (in one school one of the higher ranking black belts was part of the conversation so I asked if he wanted to work out as well.) I had no interest in sparring anyone below instructor level as I felt it was inappropriate in the context of the situation but like I said, my focus was the head instructor.
4) As I pointed out earlier, don’t be mislead by the title of the post. It’s tongue in cheek.
5) All the conversations I had about it were privately with the teacher and in one case with the teacher and one of the assistant instructors.


I used a personal example to put the situation in context. However this is not a post seeking advice in any way and my intent was to move the conversation away from my personal experience and really just gauge the forum’s opinions on open sparring. I have my opinions about it and like I said I have participated in these types of events at multiple schools (as well as hosted them at my own) and have found them to be helpful and enjoyable.

It seems rather as if you pretty much went in and said "Hey, I just wanna fight people... you up for it?"

This could not be further from the truth.

Walking into a reputable school and asking to spar... with the students?

No, I wanted either a school that had an open sparring night (in which case it’s their discretion as to who steps up to the plate) or I wanted see if the head instructor had any interest in working out (which includes light sparring).

Anyhow, enough about me, that’s not really the point. It surprises me that some of you consider this a threatening situation. Listen, I don’t know what your personal experiences have been but someone walking into a school and asking for some open sparring is a question which requires only a yes or a no. Anyone who interprets this otherwise has some form of an insecurity issue. Now granted, I didn’t spell out exactly how I went about discussing this with the instructor but why would anyone automatically assume I took an overtly aggressive approach?

I started the thread because I don’t think a lot of schools have open sparring (some for good reason) but I wanted to see why. This is why I have repeatedly asked to leave the lawsuit issue out of the discussion because that’s the most obvious reason. Some schools don’t host events of this type for other reasons. My question is what would those reasons be?

 

[jks9199]

With the small amount of info you gave, it led to misunderstandings.

Do I think an open sparring period can be good? Sure. But it's a huge can of worms for the school owner: you don't know who's coming in, what skill they have, what equipment they expect, and how they'll react or behave. And that's without the whole "what if they get hurt or hurt someone else?" lawsuit concerns. A waiver may work, may not, depending on state laws.

 

[Shifu Steve]

With the small amount of info you gave, it led to misunderstandings.

Fair enough. I admit I did leave the door open to interpretation.

I hope my last post was satisfactory in clearing the situation up and with that said thank you for your response. I agree with you jks9199 that it does open up a can of worms. However if you can navigate the legal issue (and if you value your business you will consult with a lawyer about such things) I think it's a valuable tool for your students. The reason I say this is that no matter how hard you try, some degree of "Training Hall Syndrome" will set in if you always spar the same people. I'm not saying this sparring isn't challenging, I'm just saying a degree of comfort sets in that takes away the unpredictability factor. If you are teaching self defense, this is a relevant issue. Now I understand a lot of schools participate in tournaments or other venues of that sort but that's a whole other issue within itself. Most of these events are so rigid with rules and procedures it really kills the spontaneity. I think hosting open sparring sessions at your school can be rewarding if it's done on your terms.

 

[searcher]

Great posts so far.

I will answer for myself and my 2 different schools. At current, if anyone comes to my karate school and asked this, they get turned down unless they are becoming a student. At my kickboxing gym, you would be welcomed in, but you have to workout for a month before I will let you spar, no exceptions. My reasoning is as follows: I need to see how you are on technique and skill level. I have had many come that say they are at XXX level and they are actually at -X level(my guess is boasting to act like a bad dude). I also want to make sure you are going to be evenly paired with whomever you spar. I am not going to throw you to the wolves nor will I let you eat on the newer guys.

As far as my karate school goes, I try to keep it more civilized(notice I said try). Even though we run minimal rules while sparring and training with very hard contact sparring, I do have some rules. Also, I have parents at my karate school and if an individual comes in and someone gets hurt due to my allowing outsiders to come in, I will lose students. So, unless I know you and/or your background, you will have to be a student to spar.

Either place I would say: be respectful, polite, and humble. If you are nice many people will reciprocate. If you are not, a person may lose teeth.

JMHO.

 

[Shifu Steve]

My reasoning is as follows: I need to see how you are on technique and skill level. I have had many come that say they are at XXX level and they are actually at -X level(my guess is boasting to act like a bad dude). I also want to make sure you are going to be evenly paired with whomever you spar. I am not going to throw you to the wolves nor will I let you eat on the newer guys.

I see your point and think you make a reasonable one. In my experiences with these types of things we only opened this up to the more proficient students in our school. If you come by and claim you're at XXX level as you say and you're actually not, that will be revealed quickly. Someone experienced should be able to manage that match and I think they would spar just one notch higher than the opponent. Now that's not to say that people don't get frustrated when they are being "managed" in a match and may do something irrational or uncontrolled, but there are consequences for these things and from what I've seen they have a way of working themselves out.

Like I've said, I'm a fan of open sparring but it's got an upside and a downside, like anything else. You have to weigh those things out for your school and really make the determination of what's best for you and the students. As someone who has hosted and sought the situation, I was always appreciative when I had opportunities to work out with other schools and/or martial artists.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally back in the day this was pretty common. However we are not back in the day. Now in general school owners are a bit more cautious. I mean if I let my guy's get after it with someone whom I do not know their skill level. Well, it might not be a good day for that person or they may up the ante and it may be worse for them or they may seriously be a ringer and permanently and without remorse damage one of the people that I train with. Since we only do full contact I prefer to know where people's skill level is before they get out there and spar. The proper pairing off is important when sparring full contact and close supervision is a must. That and looking to protect each and every participant so that they can continue training. I know the moral character of the people I train with and that they will follow directions but with someone of the street?

Having said all of the above working out with people you do not know is great and having different people to spar with is well awesome! So each Training Hall owner needs to figure out what is best for them and their practitioners.

 

[jks9199]

Personally back in the day this was pretty common. However we are not back in the day. Now in general school owners are a bit more cautious. I mean if I let my guy's get after it with someone whom I do not know their skill level. Well, it might not be a good day for that person or they may up the ante and it may be worse for them or they may seriously be a ringer and permanently and without remorse damage one of the people that I train with. Since we only do full contact I prefer to know where people's skill level is before they get out there and spar. The proper pairing off is important when sparring full contact and close supervision is a must. That and looking to protect each and every participant so that they can continue training. I know the moral character of the people I train with and that they will follow directions but with someone of the street?

Having said all of the above working out with people you do not know is great and having different people to spar with is well awesome! So each Training Hall owner needs to figure out what is best for them and their practitioners.

This is a really explanation of the concerns of letting someone off the street spar with your class.