Pekiti Tirsia Kali mixes with other arts
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Charlemagne
Black Belt
PTK can blend well with other arts, depending on the arts you have in mind, with the ones you listed above, I believe that WC would blend the best. Having said that, I see a better blend with something like Thai Boxing, Silat, and BJJ. But then, I try to think of multiple arts being trained together as which ones are going to complement the art rather than overlap too much, or replace.
I think you would struggle significantly trying to integrate PTK and Hapkido.
I think you would struggle significantly trying to integrate PTK and Hapkido.
Charlemagne
Black Belt
Where are you looking to train?
Danny T
Senior Master
Pekiti blends well with several other arts. Wing Chun very much so. Many principles are shared. A lot of the advance knife work is quite similar though the drills are different. Hapkido overall I don't feel will blend well however understanding the wrist, elbow, and shoulder locks will be greatly enhanced between the two. As to Judo I've only a low level of experience but understanding the controlling the body for sweeps is great but changes rather drastically when a blade is introduced. However understanding some of the throws and ground work can certainly give one a more resourceful skill set.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
It is very common to mix Kali and Wing Chun, but I personally find them almost entirely incompatible.
If you've not taken a Kali class yet, on what are you basing your opinion that it is an incomplete system that needs to be augmented with something else?
If you've not taken a Kali class yet, on what are you basing your opinion that it is an incomplete system that needs to be augmented with something else?
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ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I see.
Shortbridge, I'd be really interested on hearing you elaborate on that, seeing as the escrima system I teach (evolved from Latosa Escrima Concepts and Torres DTE) integrates seamlessly with my VT although I can see how other systems of Arnis/Kali/Escrima might not.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
It's a debate that I don't want to have, because it won't get resolved. It is very common to mix Filipino styles with Wing Chun. Lots of people do it, including you and I don't want to suggest that what you do isn't valid or even great.
I think the marriage of these systems has mostly to do with Bruce Lee/Dan Inosanto, and I don't mean disrespect to either them or anyone who chooses to train that way, but my own experience and training has landed me at a different conclusion.
There are things about Filipino styles that I like and admire, but strategically and philosophically, I don't find the approach complimentary with Wing Chun. That in no way suggests that what I do is better, just that I don't feel that they integrate smoothly. I knew when I posted that, someone would see it differently, but I still wanted to put a different perspective out there.
The OP and I also differ on this point:
"you should never stay with only one style and should always try others and mix because it gives you other ways to defend yourself and would open your mind to more things and oppnent can do to you"
..but I'm not about to try to convince a 23 year old that he doesn't know everything. It would have been tough to convince me at 23.
I will just add that I would not train someone who came to me and said that he wanted to learn what I had, even though he knew it was incomplete and he was already working on what would make it better. There are places for that, but I'm just not of that school.
I think the marriage of these systems has mostly to do with Bruce Lee/Dan Inosanto, and I don't mean disrespect to either them or anyone who chooses to train that way, but my own experience and training has landed me at a different conclusion.
There are things about Filipino styles that I like and admire, but strategically and philosophically, I don't find the approach complimentary with Wing Chun. That in no way suggests that what I do is better, just that I don't feel that they integrate smoothly. I knew when I posted that, someone would see it differently, but I still wanted to put a different perspective out there.
The OP and I also differ on this point:
"you should never stay with only one style and should always try others and mix because it gives you other ways to defend yourself and would open your mind to more things and oppnent can do to you"
..but I'm not about to try to convince a 23 year old that he doesn't know everything. It would have been tough to convince me at 23.
I will just add that I would not train someone who came to me and said that he wanted to learn what I had, even though he knew it was incomplete and he was already working on what would make it better. There are places for that, but I'm just not of that school.
Charlemagne
Black Belt
From a biomechanics perspective, what causes people to think (myself included) that WC and Kali integrate well is that they both include the trapping range. WC lives there a great deal, and depending on what system of Kali you train you will spend a good deal of time there as well. However, when one looks closer at the mechanics of how trapping is done, it is quite different in PTK versus WC. In addition, the strategy and tactics of the two systems are different, and I can easily see how that would lead to problems.
So, from a complementality of systems perspective, I don't think that PTK and WC are a good mix. Of the ones listed by the OP, it would be what I would do, but I honestly wouldn't choose any of the ones he listed to mix with PTK.
So, from a complementality of systems perspective, I don't think that PTK and WC are a good mix. Of the ones listed by the OP, it would be what I would do, but I honestly wouldn't choose any of the ones he listed to mix with PTK.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
Good post, thank you, Charlemagne. I will say, though that even "trapping range" is not what I know to be a Wing Chun concept. I think that came from JKD, but maybe it existed before.
It is true that trapping occurs in Wing Chun, but none of the lineages I've trained in have presented it that way and to do so, would I think be an area that conflicts with some core principles.
Wing Chun techniques without principles is not Wing Chun. If you take pieces of Wing Chun and mix it with something anthetical, you don't get Wing Chun+, you get something else entirely. Maybe something good, but how could anyone starting out have a basis for knowing that they can create something better?
Maybe after 10 years or so, but that's rarely what we're talking about.
Again, just my perspective.
It is true that trapping occurs in Wing Chun, but none of the lineages I've trained in have presented it that way and to do so, would I think be an area that conflicts with some core principles.
Wing Chun techniques without principles is not Wing Chun. If you take pieces of Wing Chun and mix it with something anthetical, you don't get Wing Chun+, you get something else entirely. Maybe something good, but how could anyone starting out have a basis for knowing that they can create something better?
Maybe after 10 years or so, but that's rarely what we're talking about.
Again, just my perspective.
Charlemagne
Black Belt
Makes sense. JKD has greater variability in range than WC, which would necessitate distinctions between ranges in ways that differ from WC as its parent art. This is not intended to be a pejorative, just an observation.
As for the rest, I am in agreement. While I do like the idea of training more than one art, as I noted above, training multiple arts that deal with some of the same things doesn't make as much sense to me. If that is what you want, why not train two arts that don't overlap much but could complement each other (karate and judo, or MT and BJJ, etc.)? It's not wrong to look at an art like BJJ for example, and say "man I really like what they do on the ground, but they don't do much stand up, so I better train something along side of it"...
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
I would agree with the idea that it might make more sense, if you were going to mix things, that you choose less-related things. Something with striking and something else with ground fighting. Or something empty hand and someone weapon related. Less opportunity for conflict or contradiction that way.
Thought I might revisit this thread even though the OP is long gone. Or perhaps because the OP is long gone? The conversation I'm interested in is really with the rest of you!
First off, I think I get where ShortBridge was coming from when he said that he did not mix WC and Kali and actually found them incompatible. I wonder. It may depend on how you approach the FMA you train. ShortBridge also said:
^^^^ Agreed! This (bolded section above) is precisely how I've been able to integrate the Escrima I've trained with my VT/WC. First of all, my FMA foundation is not Inosanto/LaCosta Kali but Latosa Escrima Concepts and also DTE. One of the fundamental concepts of these systems is "transition" or the ability to seamlessly and effectively move from range to range, from one weapon to another, and to to empty handed combat, all while applying the same core concepts. And the concepts involved do not contradict WC/VT. In fact, they are at the core of my lineage of WC/VT. This is nothing new. Think about how WC already incorporates this kind of "transition" and adaptation when learning the traditional weapons of WC/VT, namely the luk dim boon kwun and bart cham dao. Stance, steps, techniques and range all change as necessary, but they are conceptually entirely WC/VT.
So when using weapons and working at longer ranges, a more typically "Escrima-looking" approach (in terms of stance and movement) is very functional. When closing-in, using short weapons or going empty handed, I will transition into my WC/VT structure and way of moving. The transition is natural and I do not compromise either my Escrima or WC/VT ...any more than a WC guy who also trains a grappling art like BJJ. Each method remains distinct, except for that moment of transition where you learn fluid, efficient ways to move from the one modality to the other ...just like the WC/Grappler learns to move from striking, to clinch, to throw, and to mat work. Think of a big Venn diagram with relatively small areas where the circles overlap.
I began training Latosa Escrima alongside my WC (then "WT") back in the early 80s. Over the last ten years, I've gone a bit further, formulating an approach and curriculum called PCE that is designed to emphasize the compatibility of Escrima and WC/VT taught in the organization I train with. Not a "new style" --how can you have that with "concepts" anyway? Just an approach to teaching and application that has worked for us.
...You know, I really need to learn how to make and post videos so I can give some visual examples. Maybe if I cared about making money or a name for myself, I would. But, really, I just like doing this stuff!
First off, I think I get where ShortBridge was coming from when he said that he did not mix WC and Kali and actually found them incompatible. I wonder. It may depend on how you approach the FMA you train. ShortBridge also said:
^^^^ Agreed! This (bolded section above) is precisely how I've been able to integrate the Escrima I've trained with my VT/WC. First of all, my FMA foundation is not Inosanto/LaCosta Kali but Latosa Escrima Concepts and also DTE. One of the fundamental concepts of these systems is "transition" or the ability to seamlessly and effectively move from range to range, from one weapon to another, and to to empty handed combat, all while applying the same core concepts. And the concepts involved do not contradict WC/VT. In fact, they are at the core of my lineage of WC/VT. This is nothing new. Think about how WC already incorporates this kind of "transition" and adaptation when learning the traditional weapons of WC/VT, namely the luk dim boon kwun and bart cham dao. Stance, steps, techniques and range all change as necessary, but they are conceptually entirely WC/VT.
So when using weapons and working at longer ranges, a more typically "Escrima-looking" approach (in terms of stance and movement) is very functional. When closing-in, using short weapons or going empty handed, I will transition into my WC/VT structure and way of moving. The transition is natural and I do not compromise either my Escrima or WC/VT ...any more than a WC guy who also trains a grappling art like BJJ. Each method remains distinct, except for that moment of transition where you learn fluid, efficient ways to move from the one modality to the other ...just like the WC/Grappler learns to move from striking, to clinch, to throw, and to mat work. Think of a big Venn diagram with relatively small areas where the circles overlap.
I began training Latosa Escrima alongside my WC (then "WT") back in the early 80s. Over the last ten years, I've gone a bit further, formulating an approach and curriculum called PCE that is designed to emphasize the compatibility of Escrima and WC/VT taught in the organization I train with. Not a "new style" --how can you have that with "concepts" anyway? Just an approach to teaching and application that has worked for us.
...You know, I really need to learn how to make and post videos so I can give some visual examples. Maybe if I cared about making money or a name for myself, I would. But, really, I just like doing this stuff!
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ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
That sounds logical and I'm not familiar with your branch of escrima. I also don't claim expertise in FMA in general, but normally when people have either tried to convert me or when I've worked with people who have mixed WC with something they call Kali or Escrima of some sort or another, the conflict is that they focus on attacking the hands, whereas I was taught and teach always attacking center and by "center", in simple terms, I mean the spine from the floor between their feet through the top of their head. You can't do that while simultaneously focusing on breaking the fingers/hand/wrist/elbow progressively as a priority on the way to the body.
I teach Wing Chun as a southern shirt bridge system, like others and our priority and urgency is moving through the arms to the person as quickly as possible.
I teach Wing Chun as a southern shirt bridge system, like others and our priority and urgency is moving through the arms to the person as quickly as possible.
Yeah, I think about it the same way. With our Escrima we also want to get to the core and shut it down. De-fang the snake? Heck no, bust it's freakin' head!
--Now that said, when you are working your way in in either art, you often come into contact with arms and hands first. When you are holding a weapon, you can hurt and debilitate those hands as you move toward your real objective. That can be helpful.
--Now that said, when you are working your way in in either art, you often come into contact with arms and hands first. When you are holding a weapon, you can hurt and debilitate those hands as you move toward your real objective. That can be helpful.
Charlemagne
Black Belt
Taking the hand depends on the range you are at. If you are at long range, and want to stay there (and there are good reasons for this), then taking the hand is appropriate, as that is all you can hit, and it is what is holding the weapon. If you are at close range, then taking the head is appropriate, though you still need to monitor the hand as, again, they are the threat. If you are trying to dominate the center at the same time you are getting stabbed in the kidney then what good was it?
Juany118
Senior Master
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I don't study PTK, rather Inosanto Kali, but it seems that something is shared. Inosanto Kali meshes well enough with Wing Chun that my school teaches them in parallel, not as separate class days. The grappling aspect of Inosanto Kali also meshes well with my previous Judo training as well and from what I have seen of PTK the same should apply.
ShortBridge
3rd Black Belt
This is my objection. They are not taught together because they work well together, but because of the Bruce Lee / Dan Inasanto connection.
I think it's time we look at UFC as a style, rather than an open mixed approach to training. It's decades past time to acknowledge Jun Fan/JKD as a system, rather than relating more broadly to Wing Chun.
Juany118
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Well I would take objection to that simply because of the leineage of each art. While Bruce Lee studied with my Grand Master, William Cheung, they separated in their teens (I study GM William Cheung's TWC)
Next I think it is clear the principles meet well since others who study WC under other Lineages PLUS PTK (not Inosanto Kali) concur there is a good mesh means... It is a good mesh. Sometimes, things just fit.
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