Opinions on these books.

Jag

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I just bought the following books, and while waiting for them to arrive I'm curious if anyone here has any opinions on them, good or bad.

Ninja Shadowhand: The Art of Invisibility

The Spiritual Practices of the Ninja : Mastering the Four Gates to Freedom

Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster : Revised and Updated Edition

Stick Fighting (Bushido--The Way of the Warrior)

The Mystic Arts of the Ninja

Throwing the Ninja Star of Death <== I'm particularly interested in opinions on this book. I was able to get a copy for $50 - but I can't seem to find any other copies for less than $200! Is it really that good, or what's the deal?

Thanks.
 

Don Roley

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Do you have a teacher? I ask because I can't imagine Bujinkan practicioner getting some of those books like the ninja shadowhand one. And the ones by Hatsumi are probably not going to be much help without being in the Bujinkan. The Mystic arts one is not bad, but I got rid of my copy a few years ago to make space for others.

If you are in the Bujinkan, then the stick fighting book is a must. The other one co-authored by him is a good addition. Hayes' book is not bad. Everything else you wasted your money on.
 
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Jag

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Don Roley said:
Do you have a teacher?

Unfortunately no. There aren't Dojos near me at the moment, so I'm kinda forced into teaching myself for now. I'm planning on moving within the year or two, so I will hopefully find someplace with a Dojo in range. For now though I'm just trying to learn what I can myself, even though I'm aware of how not recommended that is overall.

Don Roley said:
I ask because I can't imagine Bujinkan practicioner getting some of those books like the ninja shadowhand one. And the ones by Hatsumi are probably not going to be much help without being in the Bujinkan.

Hm, weall perhaps they will at least prove to be an informative read.

Don Roley said:
The Mystic arts one is not bad, but I got rid of my copy a few years ago to make space for others.

I see. At least that's one good choice then. lol

Don Roley said:
If you are in the Bujinkan, then the stick fighting book is a must.

I'm not entirely sure what "Bujinkan" is really, I hadn't heard about till reading threads on this forum. I'm VERY interested in learning Bo, Jo, & Hanbo techniques though.

Don Roley said:
The other one co-authored by him is a good addition. Hayes' book is not bad.

I kind of wish I had come here first before buying any of the books, since I'm more interested in Traditional Ninjutsu, and didn't realize that Hayes was more of modernized alternative kinda thing...

Don Roley said:
Everything else you wasted your money on.

Ahh well, the curse of the n00b I guess. On average I only spent $20 per book, so it's not too big of a loss.
 

Hand Sword

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I assume you picked the books that appealed to your liking, therefore, you didn't waste your money on anything. Your interest is your interest, and knowledge is knowledge. All of it is relevant, and can be made to work for you, if you put in the effort. It's the same with any art, and the books associated with it.
 

Don Roley

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Hand Sword said:
I assume you picked the books that appealed to your liking, therefore, you didn't waste your money on anything. Your interest is your interest, and knowledge is knowledge. All of it is relevant, and can be made to work for you, if you put in the effort. It's the same with any art, and the books associated with it.

I have to disagree. Anything by Ashida Kim or Haha Lung, Ron Duncan, etc is a waste of time and money. I can't say there is any knowledge in that Shadowhand book, etc. You may enjoy the read, but if you were looking for factual information you wasted your money. And you would be better off reading something honestly fictional if you want to be entertained.
 
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Jag

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Don Roley said:
Anything by Ashida Kim or Haha Lung, Ron Duncan, etc is a waste of time and money.

Indeed. A number of the books I bought have some reviews that say stuff like "Forget Hatsumi, get the Ahsida Kim books instead!" and that's just pure nonsense. I saw a book called "The Art of Strangulation - By Haha Lung" and I just couldn't stop laughing long enough to even consider buying it. lol

Don Roley said:
I can't say there is any knowledge in that Shadowhand book, etc. You may enjoy the read, but if you were looking for factual information you wasted your money. And you would be better off reading something honestly fictional if you want to be entertained.

Hm, do you have any recommendations for future book purchases?
 

Carol

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One place to start is to do some thorough investigation in to your state's weapons laws. Many states outlaw shuriken/throwning stars completely, for example, some require a speicial permit, others do not regulate them at all. Withouth a qualified instructor, there isn't much sense buying books about nunchaku if you live in a state that strictly forbids anyone to keep nunchaku in their posession.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Jag said:
Hm, do you have any recommendations for future book purchases?

If you can get a hold of one, by all means get yourself a copy of "Understand? Good. Play!" by Ben Cole. In my opinion it's the best book written about the Bujinkan.
 

Don Roley

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Jag said:
Hm, do you have any recommendations for future book purchases?

I am sure plenty of people here do. Nimravus just gave one. I happen to think that particular one is better suited for someone who has been part of the training for a while.

You might want to get books on stretching and things like Feldenkries. If you try to learn taijutsu from books and videos you can pick up habits that you are not aware of and a teacher won't be there to catch. But being more limber and aware of your body movements can't harm your progress until you find a teacher IMO.
 
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Jag

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Don Roley said:
If you try to learn taijutsu from books and videos you can pick up habits that you are not aware of and a teacher won't be there to catch. But being more limber and aware of your body movements can't harm your progress until you find a teacher IMO.

Indeed. I recently did another search for a Dojo somewhere in my area, and somehow I must have missed this one on my first attempt. It's well within distance of my house, and if anyone has any opinions on it please let me know. I will try to call them up sometime this week and ask some questions, any recommendations on what I should ask & what they should say would be nice to.
http://www.ninpiden.com/index.html

Thanks.
 

mrhnau

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Jag said:
Indeed. I recently did another search for a Dojo somewhere in my area, and somehow I must have missed this one on my first attempt. It's well within distance of my house, and if anyone has any opinions on it please let me know. I will try to call them up sometime this week and ask some questions, any recommendations on what I should ask & what they should say would be nice to.
http://www.ninpiden.com/index.html

Thanks.

Just finished perusing the site... I don't see if he is in the Bujinkan or some other group. I also don't see what rank he is, or any of his other instructors. I'd probably want a bit more information before joining up, but thats just me... I'd just want to be sure he did not adjust his karate background based on a few books he has read and teach that...

Personally, I've not heard of him nor seen him. however, I've not been in the art for too long, so thats not a true indicator :)
 

Kreth

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Jag said:
Indeed. I recently did another search for a Dojo somewhere in my area, and somehow I must have missed this one on my first attempt. It's well within distance of my house, and if anyone has any opinions on it please let me know. I will try to call them up sometime this week and ask some questions, any recommendations on what I should ask & what they should say would be nice to.
http://www.ninpiden.com/index.html

Thanks.
The instructor calls himself Kyoshi and fails to mention where he learned "Ninpo Tai Jutsu." Don't bother...
 
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Jag

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Well, here's the questions I asked him and what he said in response:

1) Are you a part of the Bujinkan or some other group?
1. I am not bujinkan. I was Genbukan for 17 years. Now I am on my own

2) What is your current Rank?
2. My current rank in 5th degree in Ninpo with a Kyoshi title and 5th degree in Jujutsu

3) Who were some of your instructors?
3. I have had many instructors because I am trained in many different arts but as far as Ninpo goes my instructors have been Sensei Chadwick Minge from California and then for many years I was a direct student of Tanemura Soke from Japan.

4) Where did you learn "Ninpo Tai Jutsu"?
4. I learned Ninpo from the source. Tanemura Soke in Japan.
 

Don Roley

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This guy does not seem to lie, which would be the big thing for me. But there are several things that make me urge caution. And that is aside from the fact that it looks like he has actually taken more karate than what I see taught in Japan as ninjutsu to teach to his students.

First of all, it looks like this guy has created his own style with him as the head. That never goes over well with me. It would seem that he has stopped training in an art that is in Japan and is busy runnning his own thing. I have been training in this art before he has, living in Japan for a good part of that time, and I still find new things, new insights to learn and practice. Some things I find on my own, but a lot of it comes from those more skilled than me pointing out things to me. And this guy turned his back on that at some point and is now the head master of something he created.

Secondly, he told you who he trained with when you asked, but I could not find anything on his web site. The folks I respect remain a bit humble and are quick to give credit to the teachers that made them what they are. To not give that credit easily rubs me wrong. Especially since it kind fo discourages potential students from thinking they could just learn from the source that taught him.

Lastly, this guy is all about the money. I can tell. He makes his living off of teaching and runs things like a business, not a labor of love and art. He even has a "long distance" training course with videos. Money is good, take a look at my avatar. But all the Bujinkan teachers in Japan have real jobs and do not need students to live. My teacher has a few students and that is enough for him. He does not have to cater to the demands of students who want the latest martial arts fashion. He can tell people to leave and does not fear them walking out if they do not like what he says is in their best interest. If students never come back because of the intensity and taking it to the edge (and that has happened) then he has no worries of putting food on his families table.

This guy can't say that.

I would not train with this guy. I can't reccomend you do either.
 

Don Roley

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This just in from a person whose honor and knowledge I trust without question but who does not want to have his name associated with this.

I don't want to get involved with the "opinion on these books" thread, but Randy stated he was in the Genbukan for 17 years, which is wrong.

He started around 1989 with Minge which at the time was with the Genbukan. Later, Minge left in 1994 and started his American Ninpo Bugei Federation. Randy was under Minge until at least the end of Oct 23 1999 (source - archive.org). So at the most he was in the Genbukan for 12 years. % of those years he was with Minge's organization, American Ninpo Bugei Federation.

If you want to post this please don't use my name

The thing is, I remember hearing about Minge in relation to the Frank Dux mess. That puts Minge in Los Angeles as his home. According to the Ninpiden site, the teacher opened up a dojo in Colorado in 1992. I do not know where he lived prior to that, but it looks like at most he was only three years into training before he was in another state from the guy who was his instructor.

And it is only from 1989 to 1994 (5 years) that he would have been associated with the Genbukan if I read the above right. After that, he could not have gone to Japan to train with Tanemura or probably trained at Genbukan seminars.

I have seen people in the Bujinkan try things like that. They do their own thing and don't associate with many other Bujinkan members. They may have one photo of them with Hatsumi taken at a tai kai with 500 people there and talk on about being a 'personal student' of Hatsumi when Hatsumi would not even recognize him.

This is probably not as bad as that- in fact I doubt it. But it does look like he is making it sound like he had more training time on the mat under a teacher's instruction than reality. And that is another thing that would make me cautious.
 
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Jag

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First off I just want to thank you Don for giving such an in-depth response to my various questions. :)

As for the Dojo in question, I hear what your saying loud and clear, though I fear that circumstance plays much to large a part in this area that I would like. This is the only Dojo that's particularly close to my location, and really the only Dojo within a 50 Mile radius that I would even entertain (other options are "Warrior Quest" & "US Sword Artists", etc.).

I would think that with even as much training as we can agree he has, it would at least be enough to get me started, and ensure that I don't make any major mistakes trying to train myself. And when I move in the future, I can of course find a much better Dojo. I may be wrong on that, and if you would just not go here at all please let me know, but basically it's "Bad Teacher vs. Student Teaching Self" - neither good options, but which is the lesser of two evils?

Of course there's always the third option - find me a good Dojo within range of Franktown, Colorado USA. :D

Oh, and I got some of my books in today. I've pretty much read cover to cover "Mystic Arts of the Ninja" - and it's seems a good book. I've already learned a good deal about Stealth Walking, not particularly in the examples given, but in the concepts. I can walk past my sleeping dog without him noticing already. lol
 

Blade of the East

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Definitely don't buy any thing from ashida kim in the future. Its just not worth it. Good luck with your training. I don't think self training is a good idea; however, I also don't believe that school sounds great either. Personally I would go with lessons, but on the other hand you dont want to be taught techniques that are not genuine (you might have to un-learn them later). Its a tough decision, but the choice is yours.

Once again good luck!
 

Don Roley

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Actually, you might want to consider something other than ninjutsu.

Let me be blunt, I can't see why you would be attracted to ninjutsu and yet know so little about it that you can't tell Haha Lung from Hatsumi. The simplest and most likely explination is that you are attracted to the image of the ninja you see in the movies rather than knowing that there is something in the art you find interesting and worthy of study.

C'mon, be honest. :)

Of course, many of us can't exactly throw stones in this regard. The image of the ninja is cool! But as luck would have it, Bujinkan, Genbukan, etc are damn good arts.

Ah, but they are not the only good arts out there. There are tons of great martial artists in the Denver area. I can think of a lot of teachers and arts I would be studying if the Bujinkan disapeared from the face of the earth and/or I did not alreay have a lot of time invested.

So, maybe you should look at other arts and teachers in the area. You may find that they don't have uniforms as cool as ours (black is so easy to assessorize with) but you will find they are just as good as ninjutsu.
 
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Don Roley said:
Actually, you might want to consider something other than ninjutsu.

Let me be blunt, I can't see why you would be attracted to ninjutsu and yet know so little about it that you can't tell Haha Lung from Hatsumi. The simplest and most likely explination is that you are attracted to the image of the ninja you see in the movies rather than knowing that there is something in the art you find interesting and worthy of study.

C'mon, be honest. :)

I don't know where you got that info, I certainly know the diff between Hatsumi and Haha Lung/Ashida Kim. There seems be a mistake made in the above post by "Blade of the East" that I bought something by Ahsida Kim - which never happened.

I'm *NOT* attracted to the "Hollywood Ninja" at all. I'm attracted to Ninjutsu because of what the art teaches, survival, weapons, stealth, and the history of it. I trained in Karate when I was very young and I never liked it.

I didn't know what "Bujinkan" was right off the bat because I'm not good at remembering the names in foreign languages, and I'm obviously new enough to not have it in rope memory.

I'm drawn to Ninjutsu, and regardless of what you may think about me, I'm going to train in it. I've been turned onto a Bujinkan Dojo in Parker that I am looking into at the moment, and if nothing else you should realize that I am *TRYING* to do the right thing here. The very fact that I came here to inquire about things before just signing up with them should show something.

So, please, don't belittle me - I don't know everything, I'm new, but I'm trying to learn and I want to learn.
 

Don Roley

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I am not trying to belittle you. Your post kind of shows that you do not know what you are getting into when you train in a Bujinkan dojo and you may be disapointed because of your preconceived notions.

Seriously, most Bujinkan dojos teach unarmed stuff 90 percent of the time. Add in sticks and you are up to about 99 percent of the time. Not much stealth or survival or anything else you listed.

It is a good art. But if you are looking for a mystical commando type, you will be disapointed. If you did not like karate because it dealt mainly with just throwing punches and kicks, I don't think you will be any happier in a Bujinkan dojo. If you are only looking for a good art to study, keep your mind open and don't discount the idea of other arts.

That is not belittling. That is just my experience talking. I see a lot of people come into the art thinking that they will start off learning throwing stars and how to sneak into places. Most of them leave disapointed. I think people should look at a Bujinkan dojo with open eyes and no preconcieved notions about the art. If they like what they see, then great.
 

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