Ontario prostitution laws could be lifted Saturday

[David43515]

Off topic -- but what the hell? You leasing or buying?

Actually, not as of topic as one might think.

Ya got it. Ya sell it. Ya still got it. The ultimate business model.

 

[Scott T]

Actually, not as of topic as one might think.

Ya got it. Ya sell it. Ya still got it. The ultimate business model.

:lol:

 

[Sukerkin]

I had a debate with Evil Sandan over it a bunch of times. He had used escort service

This bit is not 'wrong'.

and yes he was married when he did it so he cheated on his wife

This bit is.

For me the rights and wrongs of this profession all hinge upon the true freedom of choice of the women involved.

If it is something they choose to do, largely because it is a way of making huge amounts of money in a short time (speaking of the high end 'respectable' end of the scale here), then I have no quibble with their choice. It's a heck of a lot more honest and moral than working in the Finance sector.

If they are coerced or overtly exploited, then that is something I do have a problem with.

Sadly, a great majority fall into the latter category rather than the former .

 

[Blade96]

Generally, when prostitution is legal, the women are much better protected and work in a much safer environment. Their job will become more respectable and comes out of the criminal influence sphere. And they'll pay taxes. And because it is legal, prices will go down due to increased competition (which is good for clients).

Everybody wins.

No they dont. What you are suggesting is not for an end to conditions that force a woman to sexualize herself and sell her body but for better conditions within her exploitation.

And -perhaps- this is the only way for some women to make real money.

You're telling me that the only real power/making real money for some women is between their legs? I do not buy that. and it sounds like a cop out to me.

Don’t kid yourself men and women both use escort services.

You cannot speak of woman and men johns in the same breath. The number of woman johns as opposed to men using women for sex.....Nonono. Can't speak of em in the same sentence. Men are using women most of the time. Who's doing it? It hardly aint women doing most of the sex buying.

I've talked to a few escorts. All of them said the same thing, this is their choice, the money is a lot better than what they could make flipping a burger and they were picky over who they saw. (Note, I've never used a service professional's services and most likely never will. These were also models/dancers who I talked with at meets).
.

Then it isnt a choice. It is the illusion of having a choice. If you have to take the sex job because thats the only way you can make good money that isnt choice. Give her the option of the nice job that pays good money or, the sex job that pays good money. and if she still chooses the escort job, THAT would be a choice.

This bit is not 'wrong'.

Its considered morally wrong by most of the world. In fact, it can also give an insight into people's character, for example how they see women or people in general.

 

[Brother John]

Road trip.

SHOTGUN!!!!!!!!


( everyone remember, I called it first )

Your Brother (buckle up)
John

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Then it isnt a choice. It is the illusion of having a choice. If you have to take the sex job because thats the only way you can make good money that isnt choice. Give her the option of the nice job that pays good money or, the sex job that pays good money. and if she still chooses the escort job, THAT would be a choice.

But it is a choice. In some cases they do turn don "traditional" jobs for sex jobs that pay more.

Ok, Danni Ashe. Arguably one of the most downloaded women on the internet. Runs a porn empire she started. Does solo and G/G for pay. Not prostitution, but a porn star which some say is the same thing.
Carol Cox, who claims similar titles. Runs a porn business out of Quebec. Does it all.
There are more examples, including the gal who gave the TSA a scare when she went through in shears, but porn isn't prostitution by my definition.
They all do share the fact they chose these lives, over 'normal' jobs. They also aren't your 'doped up druggie" stereotypes.

The women at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada all look to be there of their own accord, no guns to head, etc. Now, would some of them prefer to make $75k a year sitting 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week behind a desk rather than working less hours? Maybe. Maybe not.

There are women who chose to be prostitutes. They like the money, they like the independence, they like sex.
There are women who are forced to be prostitutes. They literally have guns to their heads.
One is a crime, one is not.

But I'm a man. I admit, I like women, like sex, and often let my little brain think for me.

I'll let the women talk now:

After the triage, the relentlessly cheerful Ms. Sandrelli smiles and shrugs. Working at the centre, run by a group of ex-prostitutes called Prostitution Alternatives Counselling and Education (PACE), means "14 hour days," she says.

"It's endless." In this neighbourhood, hookers work around the clock. The homeless shuffle about. Addicts shoot up in a park across the street, leaving needles scattered like dead leaves.

If anyone should want prostitution wiped out, it is the women here. But far from wanting it eradicated, the women of PACE want it legalized. More than that, Ms. Sandrelli says with bubbly enthusiasm, "we have to honour and respect sex work."

That opinion may be shocking given the context. To understand it, says Char LaFontaine, a middle-aged former prostitute who is now a housing co-ordinator and outreach worker with PACE, a line has to be drawn between "survival sex" and prostitution.

"Somebody who is in prostitution has a right to refuse a date. Women in survival sex don't have the same rights." A pimp, a drug habit or extreme poverty can leave women with no option but prostitution: That's survival sex. Almost all of the prostitution in the downtown east side, she says, is survival sex.

But prostitution is different, Ms. LaFontaine insists. It's a choice.

"There's women that are in prostitution to put themselves through university. There's women in prostitution to buy a house and it's just a faster way to make good money. But again, those women have the right of refusal," says Ms. LaFontaine.

http://www.missingpeople.net/do_some_women_really_choose-june_9,_2002.htm

As I said, I've talked to some of the gals who choose it. They like the money, the freedom and the independence. They should be allowed to continue.

The ones forced into it...should be helped, not criminalized.

 

[Blade96]

I'll say again, I have doubts about the people who are into that type of thing saying it is a real choice and there is not exploitation going on. Of course they wouldn't wanna see anything wrong in it! They don't wanna see anything wrong in it! Same as I would have the doubts about men saying it, and I'll say again, the people who typed in here are men.

People who do prostitution to go through university are being used and exploited. They havent got a real choice. Either its that or working at mcdonalds which wouldnt pay off the student loan. And its notable that the jobs that give women the big bucks, like the prostitutions, are often the ones which reinforce female stereotypes or sexualize women in some way.

 

[Scott T]

I'll say again, I have doubts about the people who are into that type of thing saying it is a real choice and there is not exploitation going on. Of course they wouldn't wanna see anything wrong in it! They don't wanna see anything wrong in it! Same as I would have the doubts about men saying it, and I'll say again, the people who typed in here are men.

People who do prostitution to go through university are being used and exploited. They havent got a real choice. Either its that or working at mcdonalds which wouldnt pay off the student loan. And its notable that the jobs that give women the big bucks, like the prostitutions, are often the ones which reinforce female stereotypes or sexualize women in some way.

Male prostitutes/escorts also exist, and in growing numbers. Do you feel the same way about them? I mean, exploited or sexualized.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll say again, I have doubts about the people who are into that type of thing saying it is a real choice and there is not exploitation going on. Of course they wouldn't wanna see anything wrong in it! They don't wanna see anything wrong in it! Same as I would have the doubts about men saying it, and I'll say again, the people who typed in here are men.

People who do prostitution to go through university are being used and exploited. They havent got a real choice. Either its that or working at mcdonalds which wouldnt pay off the student loan. And its notable that the jobs that give women the big bucks, like the prostitutions, are often the ones which reinforce female stereotypes or sexualize women in some way.

Look, I admit, I'm a man. Least last time I checked when it was warmer, could be different today, I dunno.

But.

I'm ok with gays, support their rights, etc.
But I'm not gay, not gayly inclined, etc.

I support legalization of pot.
But I don't smoke, never have, and most likely never will.

I believe a woman (or man) should be free to do what they want to do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. The individual, male or female, who chooses to exchange sexual pleasure (be it on film, video or through mutual contact) for profit in my opinion should be legally protected, not persecuted. It's a job, same as flipping a burger or being a CEO. Just as you pay less for a McD burger, the 'fast food hooker' charges less for eh, whateva. You pay much more for a premium burger, the high priced escort who specializes in NYS Governors will charge much more.

No one made the university gal choose to do ******** over burger flipping, other than the same cash vs time decision all of us make when deciding between 2 different jobs. One gal I spoke to specifically said it left her more time for her studies.

So are you saying we need to bump up burger flippers pay checks to $1,500 a week for 10 hrs work so it;s fair?

Life isn't fair. Frack, I get paid less than minimum wage for running MT, I'd love to make what I'm worth. Who wouldn't? But life doesn't work that way. To some degree, we're all whores. Who among us wouldn't choose a fast easy buck over long hours at min wage? I build websites, take photos, advise and consult. Ashley Dupre makes a lot more cash than I do, and works a much shorter day. You think she should give that up and do my jobs? Hell, I'll trade places with her for a year. I could get MT a new server even.

I make all these comments as someone who in all honesty has never paid for sex, nor paid for companionship, and never will. I personally don't like the idea either, however I support these peoples right to earn a living by the means of their choice.

And unless you're locked in a room, your visa and papers taken, a gun to your head, you have a choice. The great majority of escorts, brothel workers (in the US anyway) and average streetwalker chose this profession. Those who do it so pay for addictions, need help, not prosecution.

I'm a man who thinks prostitution should be legal, and those who are forced into it helped, those who force others into it punished, and those who do it by choice left to safely ply their trade.

 

[Blade96]

I am not arguing that the person who sells their body should be prosecuted. I'm saying the pimp and the trick.

And one doesnt necessarily have to have a gun to their head or be locked in a room before you can say they are not freely choosing things.

P.S. and some peep neg repped me for my 'gender comments' which are true btw. Why should i get that from a person who won't even give their name (positive reps give their name, neg ones don't, but i am not surprised about that)

 

[Scott T]

I am not arguing that the person who sells their body should be prosecuted. I'm saying the pimp and the trick.

And one doesnt necessarily have to have a gun to their head or be locked in a room before you can say they are not freely choosing things.

Let's work on a basic premise here:

Do you believe, under any circumstances, that a person can willingly and without coercion become a prostitute?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Then it isnt a choice. It is the illusion of having a choice. If you have to take the sex job because thats the only way you can make good money that isnt choice. Give her the option of the nice job that pays good money or, the sex job that pays good money. and if she still chooses the escort job, THAT would be a choice.

Yes well, by that definition, I can only choose to do my job if I also had the alternative of getting paid the same for flipping burgers. And what you are saying is that since noone is offering me to pay me that amount for flipping burgers, I didn't 'really' choose to become a systems engineer?

Hey, I could earn much more by becoming a male prostitute.
But I didn't do that. I chose to become a systems engineer. MY choice.
If I had chosen to become a male prostitute, that would have been MY choice as well.
Choice doesn;t have to be between equal propositions.
Choice is between what is there.

Its considered morally wrong by most of the world. In fact, it can also give an insight into people's character, for example how they see women or people in general.

I have the utmost respect for women. But that does not mean I think it is wrong for them to become prostitute, or that it is wrong to visit one.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ok @Blade: I suppose you think it is wrong for people to have sex for pay.
So how about having sex for presents, the way many good looking women choose for (the trophy wives)?
How about people having sex for free out of wedlock?

If I go to massage therapist for my back (I haven't yet needed one, but for the sake of the argument) it is ok to get servicce for pay without caring at all about the reasons why that person chose to become a massage therapist.

And suddenly, if the massage involves something other than my back, I am a swine? That don't fly. If they choose out of their free will to do something that will earn them several times what I make, then what is wrong with that?

Men want / need sex.
That is not a sin.
If another consenting adult wants to provide it, then that is not a sin either.
The only 'sin' would be for the person who broke his vows.
But that has nothing to do with money changing hands, and the person who would do that would also try to get it for free from a mistress if he didn't / wouldn't / couldn't get it in a busines transaction.

 

[Blade96]

Let's work on a basic premise here:

Do you believe, under any circumstances, that a person can willingly and without coercion become a prostitute?

Sure. If they have access to jobs that'll give them the good pay and working hours they need (time for studies like Bob said and money to help them get through school) where they wouldn't have to supplement their earnings with this degrading work, if they really didnt need this but choose it anyways, then yes. They chose it.

But if you look at it, as I said to the sandan, he thought of the escort service people as choosing their jobs. Not really, when I asked him about the salary/job hours at their other job and he admitted it was crap. Not much of a choice they made.

Industries like this see, they love university students (who need the money, else they most likely wouldnt do this kind of work most of them) Some years ago a club (Sirens I believe) advertised on the back of our university students agenda books something like 'two women preforming' something like that. Our students' union collected all the books with the university population's help and that advertising was banned as exploitation and degradation of women.

I have also known university students who did stuff like prostitution/stripping etc and they said it wasnt anything they chose to do but they couldnt pay their high tuition if they just flipped burgers. What kind of a 'choice' is that?

I think, what needs to be done instead of this legalization thing, is to give people access to the kinds of job money and job hours they need so they wouldnt have to do this kind of work like prostitution.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I have also known university students who did stuff like prostitution/stripping etc and they said it wasnt anything they chose to do but they couldnt pay their high tuition if they just flipped burgers. What kind of a 'choice' is that?

The same choice that men have. Except their services are less in demand.

I think, what needs to be done instead of this legalization thing, is to give people access to the kinds of job money and job hours they need so they wouldnt have to do this kind of work like prostitution.

Yes. Sure. We all want that. Good money for decent hours and good benefits.
But that doesn't happen, now does it?
Who is supposed to give us those job? Santa?

So if that doesn't happen, we all have to get through life as best as we can.

 

[Sukerkin]

Blade, this is clearly something you are firm minded on and you speak with the certitude of someone who has encountered experiences in real life that have shaped you opinions (indeed, I do recall you mentioning before that you have known people who have been through very bad times with drugs and prostituion).

So after this I shall not be adding any more into this mix as I do not wish to seem to be gainsaying you.

I don't believe anyone here would dispute that women forced into the sex trade would not have anything good to say about it. I would also agree with you that there are different degrees of 'forced', some more overt than others.

As with any 'industry', the way out of the shadows is to protect the workers from exploitation and give them a way to air grievances that works. Keeping prostitution illegal ensures that bad things will happen to those that work in it and they will have no recourse.

I suspect that you might be thinking how could I possibly know anything about it 'cos I'm a man? Or maybe you suspect that I am speaking in favour of it just because I am a man? I can only assure you that, in terms of my own moral compass, it is not something I favour women doing (or blokes for that matter). However, as I spoke of above, keeping it illegal does make things better, it makes things worse. It's the same view I hold on currently illegal drugs.

A final point is that there are those who do not fit your view on this subject viz those that are not victims.

To a large extent, I confess my views come through being informed on the subject by having known women who have chosen this trade or it's ancilliaries. I shared a house with a pair of 'Exotic Dancers', as we used to call them over here in Britain. They were both friends of mine at university and found it much easier to make a decent augmentation to their grants through their looks rather than bar-work et al.

More than that, I have known well one who used to make a tidy sum in the very profession we have been addressing in this thread.

She didn't go into it because anyone made her, she did it because she was partly curious to see if she could but mainly because she made a bundle of cash for doing something she enjoyed. When she tired of it, she quit and never looked back.

To reiterate, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you about those women who are victims. But I think that is another discussion.


EDIT: Ah, I see I took far too long formulating the above. It's sort of become redundant .

 

[Scott T]

Sure. If they have access to jobs that'll give them the good pay and working hours they need (time for studies like Bob said and money to help them get through school) where they wouldn't have to supplement their earnings with this degrading work, if they really didnt need this but choose it anyways, then yes. They chose it.

But if you look at it, as I said to the sandan, he thought of the escort service people as choosing their jobs. Not really, when I asked him about the salary/job hours at their other job and he admitted it was crap. Not much of a choice they made.

without knowing what their job is, it's difficult to make that judgment.

Industries like this see, they love university students (who need the money, else they most likely wouldnt do this kind of work most of them) Some years ago a club (Sirens I believe) advertised on the back of our university students agenda books something like 'two women preforming' something like that. Our students' union collected all the books with the university population's help and that advertising was banned as exploitation and degradation of women.

Good for you.

I have also known university students who did stuff like prostitution/stripping etc and they said it wasnt anything they chose to do but they couldnt pay their high tuition if they just flipped burgers. What kind of a 'choice' is that?

I think, what needs to be done instead of this legalization thing, is to give people access to the kinds of job money and job hours they need so they wouldnt have to do this kind of work like prostitution.

The last thing we need in this country is yet another entitlement program. It's not society's responsibility to put everyone to work. Prostitution to pay tuition is a choice, don't kid yourself. There are other options such as student loans at both the federal and provincial level that a job can enhance. I did a few things that I wasn't proud of for supplementary income during college, but none of them involved removing my clothes.

 

[Blade96]

Yes. Sure. We all want that. Good money for decent hours and good benefits.
But that doesn't happen, now does it?
Who is supposed to give us those job? Santa?

So if that doesn't happen, we all have to get through life as best as we can.

Sure. We all have to get through life as best we can. Ok, and I admit. I'm a leftist. So I see it as exploitation and that results from capitalism and sexism. Yeah I throw in the gender part and don't apologize for it. But cause we have to go through life the best we can, that doesnt mean what is happening with the prostitution isnt exploitation/sexism. and that we shouldnt try to change it.

And men don't 'need' sex. They just want it. We need food, we need water. But we don't 'need' sex. Thats what the sandan said to me when I wasn't 'putting out' That he needed sex and couldnt live without it. And dont like the idea of sex for presents either. That sandan gave me everything - I got a new gi. I had a kitten. I was given shotokan training that brought me up to orange belt level. as long as I was staying with him and giving him sex. and doing what he wanted. Thats all he wanted - a sex slave and someone to live with so he wouldnt be alone. and control. It was all bribes. and as soon as I leave him he is doing the same to this new girl he got. (should have seen him last night - making a show out of it helping this new girl with her shotokan , the exact same he did to me - and ignoring me. Soon as I was gone I am now the dirt under his feet. Yes he came back to the dojo - and i had to train next to him.) I am not a prostitute - but I sure felt like one. And its one of the reasons I dumped him after 5 months. Even though i am alone ever since it sure feels better than him!! I myself would flip burgers over being a prostitute even if it does pay the money. I wouldnt degrade myself in such a fashion and be used like a piece of meat.

I was given presents for sex and companionship. Thats how I know what it is like.

And it isnt really free will. As I said and youjust said, it is money that is influencing what job the person does. The burgers or the prostitute. It is not entirely free will in your brain, of your mind. And I know all about that too.

I have a father who has been unhappy his whole life because he had to quit university and work at a job that paid the bills instead of being able to do what he loves. The reason was that he had two small kids. Me and my brother. And my mom, his wife. Circumstances dictated what job he did. He did not make the choice freely of his own mind and brain.

And I think very often, most of the time, people do not choose their jobs freely. Even leave the prostitution out of it. Circumstances make the choice. Economic. Social. Whatever. But very often it is not free will of their own mind and brain.

 

[Blade96]

Yesss, Knew people who went through bad times, I myself was abused and exploited. It is because of those I think I developed a very strong social conscience so that when I speak (or type! lol) it is with passion. But I like how I was treated here in this thread, we really debate stuff like whether prostitution is really 'chosen' without the stuff that a mod would warn or ban people for.

Reminds me why I joined this forum. I love it here and the people are basically nice.

I also think it is good to debate a issue such as this. Its important to get the ideas out. And I have some different ones than were presented in the thread, so I decided to share them. And debate a little.

I think we each made our views known though. You made your point, and I made mine. Maybe no need to debate more.

 

[Sukerkin]

I miss the long-term Edit available to Moderators! I misplaced a word in my last post that wrecked the meaning. Hoprefully it was still clear from context but what I meant to say (underlined for emphasis of the change) was:

"However, as I spoke of above, keeping it illegal doesn't make things better, it makes things worse. It's the same view I hold on currently illegal drugs."