Online Blue Belt vs White Belt at Small Competition

Spookey

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Recently, we were invited to a "Taekwondo/Karate" Tournament with a Jiu-Jitsu Division.

The Blue Belt complained about an "illegal pressure point technique" (Ezekiel Choke) and we couldn't get clarification so our white belt just played position the remainder of the match.

After the match, the Blue Belt advised he did the Combatives DVD to get his rank, so I assume he may have just not been familiar with the Scissor Sweep or Ezekiel Choke.


Without regard, there were some really nice people there, and since we didn't go in looking to storm, maybe we displayed some deficiencies from which they can benefit. We have plenty of educational material for our white belt as well.
 

punisher73

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One of the deficiencies in the combatives program. It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.
 

punisher73

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PS: That is only a "deficiency" if you want to roll in BJJ comps and compete with approaches that have more sport orientation.
 

drop bear

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One of the deficiencies in the combatives program. It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.

Yes and no. Pulling guard could be considered a no no in a self defence but then so could letting the other guy sit in mount for three minutes.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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No real surprise that a BJJ white belt training in a Training Hall with an actual coach would beat a Gracie Combatives DVD and possibly online trained blue belt.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Yeah, a GU blue belt who has only trained up through the Combatives curriculum is essentially a no-stripe white belt when it comes to tournament competition. If the guy had worked his way up to at least blue belt stripe 1 through GU he might have done better. The GU blue-through-purple belt curriculum has tons of great material that works well in competition.

I've never heard of BJJ tournament rules that didn't allow the Ezekial choke. It sounds like the refs didn't fully understand he rules themselves. Were the refs ranked in jiu-jitsu?
 
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Spookey

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Regarding the rules, this was a "Karate" Competition...they had some of our Jiu-Jitsuka refereeing but didn't explain the rules thoroughly.

We compete in IBJJF/ Naga rules so this was news to us...issue was the blue was from the host school so we didn't want to be rude...never know what weird rules you'll find grappling at a "Karate Tournament". That's not a knock on Karate, just an acknowledgement that BJJ is not their bread and butter.
 
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Spookey

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Dojo Bear...

I liked your post, and agree with your reflection of the word deficiency!

Having someone keep top control without recourse doesn't seem "street ready". After all he was not mounted by a competition level blue belt, but rather a recreational white belt.

Good times...regardless, I just love BJJ!
 

Hanzou

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It is not like there are not BJJ schools almost everywhere now. Get into a Training Hall and train!!!

Yeah, there's really no excuse unless you're unemployed. Nothing beats having a purple to black belt correcting you and allowing you to feel the movements when you're a beginner. It makes a world of difference.
 

kuniggety

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Yeah, there's really no excuse unless you're unemployed. Nothing beats having a purple to black belt correcting you and allowing you to feel the movements when you're a beginner. It makes a world of difference.

Or even a real blue belt compared to a GU blue belt.

FWIW, I've rolled with someone a few times who has done the US Army Combatives which is heavily modeled off of the curriculum taught in the GU blue belt/Combatives DVDs. He had a much stronger base than someone off the street but I still tapped him out every time that I rolled with him and I am still a white belt. Also, for a while, I signed up for GU and reviewed the blue belt material, but used it as a learning supplement and did not try to actually test through them.
 
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Brian R. VanCise

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Kuniggety that is a good way to utilize the GU Combatives DVD's as a supplement to training in a real school, under a real teacher. Then they can be very beneficial.

I too have also rolled with soldiers trained from the US Army Combatives as well as a couple of individuals who started off with the GU Combatives DVD's. Same result. Maybe a bit better than someone off the street but easily submitted at any time. My students also easily handled them as well.
 

FriedRice

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One of the deficiencies in the combatives program. It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.


Man...I want to know WHICH combative programs that you are talking about, SPECIFICALLY, that "DOES NOT ADDRESS MANY COMMON TECHNIQUES that are successfully used in BJJ competitions".

The White belt merely did a stanky scissor sweep, with horrible technique, yet the CQC whatever Blue belt, just flew in the air. Which programs are you talking about that don't teach scissor sweeps or how to defend against them. What in the world?

I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.
 

Tez3

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I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.

Not really, MMA is for competition fighting, the others aren't. There is an overlap because there's only so many way's you can strike and defend yourself but they aren't MMA.
 

Chrisoro

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I train Krav Maga, and it's basically MMA Lite, with weapons. Watching YouTube vids of Marines doing MCMAP...once again, MMA Lite.

I have never seen any Krav Maga instructor teaching anything remotely close to good groundfighting, and calling it Krav Maga. Even the official IKMF instructional series containing the complete curriculum up to Expert 1 have minimal ground figthing and show pretty crappy escapes on the ground.

I wouldn't even dream of calling Krav Maga MMA-light, as ground fighting is such an essential part of MMA competition that I believe most Krav guys would be eaten alive in an MMA fight with an MMA-practitioner that had trained the same amount of time. Krav Maga is a good self-defense system for the real world, considering the training methodology, width of subjects taken into consideration, and other stuff, but it has about as much to do with MMA as classical Karate.

Could it function as a stand up component for an MMA-fighter? Probably. Could it work well in an MMA-setting on it's own? Not very likely.
 

Chrisoro

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One of the deficiencies in the combatives program. It is designed with "self-defense" in mind, and does not address many common techniques that are successfully used in BJJ competitions because you wouldn't see them "on the street" or are giving something up that is ok in competition but not in a self-defense situation.

Why is the difference in focus a deficiency? If it is designed for unarmed self defense or streetfighting with someone without BJJ-experience, doesn't it make sence to focus on those techniqes of GJJ that has been proven to work in that kind of setting? Gracie Combatives is is not designed for BJJ competition. Competition-relevant techniques are introduced later, as is other self defence techniques against threats not covered in the combatives program. Saying that Gracie Combatives is deficient for not focusing on competition-relevant techniques, is like saying a word processor is deficient for being a poor spreadsheet.

Apples and oranges, people.
 

FriedRice

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I have never seen any Krav Maga instructor teaching anything remotely close to good groundfighting, and calling it Krav Maga. Even the official IKMF instructional series containing the complete curriculum up to Expert 1 have minimal ground figthing and show pretty crappy escapes on the ground.

I don't doubt that. There are more crappy Krav joints that are full of S, then there are good ones. Then there are the many Krav federations with different structures and curriculum, because they're all trying to cash in on the Krav name, while it's still hot.

However, one of the Krav gyms that I train at, also has a legit BJJ program with Black belts and competition team that brings home medals at NAGA, World's, Grappler's Quest, etc. Their Krav & Muay Thai program is run by a legit Krav Black belt and he also fights Amateur Muay Thai. And they have Pro MMA and ammy fighters.

I wouldn't even dream of calling Krav Maga MMA-light, as ground fighting is such an essential part of MMA competition that I believe most Krav guys would be eaten alive in an MMA fight with an MMA-practitioner that had trained the same amount of time. Krav Maga is a good self-defense system for the real world, considering the training methodology, width of subjects taken into consideration, and other stuff, but it has about as much to do with MMA as classical Karate.

Krav Maga is definitely MMA Lite. This term can vary in many levels. I go to Krav gyms to spar sometimes with their highest levels, so yes, I know that they're not very good. Even at this one Krav gym that I consider legit. The main instructor however, is good though, but I've never sparred vs. him.

Could it function as a stand up component for an MMA-fighter? Probably. Could it work well in an MMA-setting on it's own? Not very likely.

Sure it can. There are Krav Maga who fights MMA. They aren't the best or anything though. There are also Aikidokas, Karatekas, TKD, Capoeira, etc. in amateur and Pro MMA....all the way up to UFC Title holders. Of course they cross train in BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai and other staples of mainstream MMA, in order to make it work. And Krav is just this...Krav copies techniques from other styles, thus MMA Lite.
 

FriedRice

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Not really, MMA is for competition fighting, the others aren't. There is an overlap because there's only so many way's you can strike and defend yourself but they aren't MMA.

Yes really. You just need to research better as there are various federations for Krav Maga, and the one that I frequent to most, is definitely MMA based. And it also depends on certain bias of its Instructor(s).
 

Tez3

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Yes really. You just need to research better as there are various federations for Krav Maga, and the one that I frequent to most, is definitely MMA based. And it also depends on certain bias of its Instructor(s).


Lol, My mother was doing Krav Maga in the 1940s...in Israel when she was in the IDF. I know quite a bit about it actually...oh and it's not MMA lite.
 
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