On killing...

[Carol]

In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person. The reason cited was one of faith.

I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.

Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?

 

[Xue Sheng]

I do not think I can answer this question.

I can say yes or no but truth be known I will not truly know unless I find myself in a situation that may require it.... and I hope I never do.

 

[Kacey]

I do not think I can answer this question.

I can say yes or no but truth be known I will not truly know unless I find myself in a situation that may require it.... and I hope I never do.

I think this pretty much covers it.

I will add that I see a difference between the heat of the moment (defense of self and/or others) and other times. That is, I think, the difficulty with execution of criminals, no matter how dire the crime(s): how removed from the situation must one be to still consider it self-defense? And is defense of society in the abstract (execution of criminals) the same as defense of self and others during the execution of a crime? How to decide? Where to draw the line? Like Xue, I don't have an answer to this, and hope to never confront it directly.

 

[sankaku-jime]

In the heat of the moment who knows, if its a case of kill of be killed I dont think most people would think twice about it, after the event it would be a different matter.

 

[Infinite]

In regards to myself I do not know... I don't think anyone knows except for maybe a LEO who really has to consider it on a daily if not minutely basis.

I can say that I wouldn't hesitate to kill if I thought someone was going to seriously harm / kill / possibly kill / someone I loved.

That situation I thought I was facing once and I was ready. It turned out I wasn't facing it which I am OH SO HAPPY ABOUT.

Before you ask, A friend got jumped and I thought I saw someone reaching for a weapon but he was just pulling his pants back up. To be honest jumped was 3 guys came up but he and one guy went toe to toe the others just stood back like I did.

 

[rutherford]

Yep.

I was born with a certain amount of moral flexibility.

I've never tried to kill anybody, nor would I try to do so if I saw any other option.

However, I'm going to assume that anybody who tries to harm me or another has a similar lack of barriers and take appropriate action.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Not sure as I would like to be on this but I believe that given the right circumstances I would take a life without blinking an eye. I truly believe that there are people out there that have or will forfeit their right to life for the things they have done in the past or will do in the future. To protect myself, family, the weak, or friends from death, torture, rape, etc. I think I might take a life.
I also believe that what is just is not always what is legal but that is a different discussion

 

[SFC JeffJ]

It just takes conditioning. If you have the conditioning, it's very easy to kill. There just needs to be some discipline involved with the conditioning so you aren't a sociopath as well.

Jeff

 

[Infinite]

It just takes conditioning. If you have the conditioning, it's very easy to kill. There just needs to be some discipline involved with the conditioning so you aren't a sociopath as well.

Jeff

Sociopathic / Psychotic are mental conditions that require a specific physiology. You can not train someone into these states they are born that way.

Ruthless thug on the other hand with no value of life would appear to be very similar

 

[Bob Hubbard]

To me, killing is wrong, no matter how you spin the term.
I train, hoping to never have to use what I know.
But if I was in a situation where I had no choice to do so or I or mine would die, then I'd probably do so. But I hope I never have to find out.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

To me, killing is wrong, no matter how you spin the term.
I train, hoping to never have to use what I know.
But if I was in a situation where I had no choice to do so or I or mine would die, then I'd probably do so. But I hope I never have to find out.

I got to disagree with you on that Bob. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I just wanted to clarify my thoughts from my previous post.

Once someone decides to ignore your, how I hate how this phrase is percieved now, right to life, as far as I'm concerned, they forfiet their own. So if someone tries to kill me and I end up killing them, I'm performing a public service as far as I'm concerned.

Jeff

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'll agree one hundred percent with that statement Jeff

 

[elder999]

Yep.

I was born with a certain amount of moral flexibility.

Well, have a look at this post.

I also have a fair amount of moral flexibility, or ambiguity-not something one wants to find out about oneself the way I did-at least, that was my experience. I'm older, now, though, and-while I know I'd have no problems eating a couple of sandwiches, making love to my wife and getting a good night's sleep afterwards, well, I wouldn't be happy about it.

 

[tellner]

Ah yes, The Decision. There's a lot that could be said about it. It's one of the most fundamental questions and bears thinking and reflection from time to time. A lot of people take up martial arts in a strange way to avoid making it. They figure that if they're really good they can neutralize attacks without the risk of hurting or killing someone else. Others - you find them in the gun forums a lot - are really keen on the idea of zipping a bad guy. Most of them have never seen violent death up close.

Two very good books on the subject are Lt. Col. Grossman's On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society and Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme . Ayoob is a little handgun-specific, but the essential material is very good for anyone looking at these issues.

I would strongly urge anyone with an interest in these matters and particularly anyone who carries a weapon to take Mr. Ayoob's class LFI-1 "Judicious Use of Deadly Force". You'll get a superb twenty hours of the legal and ethical parameters of the use of force and deadly force. Some of it is emotionally difficult. I had a couple sleepless nights. It is solid gold. Lawyers in attendance said the treatment of the legal issues was better than what they got in law school. The second half of the course is twenty hours of world-class instruction in practical pistolcraft. One does not have to take the shooting portion of the program.

I've never killed anyone and fervently hope not to. But I have drawn weapons when I thought my life was in danger and to protect others, and I believe that I would have been able to do what I had to if the situation hadn't suddenly improved. Would it have been moral? Yes. My life is worth infinitely more to me than that of someone who criminally puts it in jeopardy. By extension, the criminal who puts the innocent at risk forfeits the compassion and consideration to which people are entitled. Would it be something I would enjoy and walk away from unscathed? Certainly not. If you have a functioning forebrain and conscience the act of taking a life is significant and traumatic.

To make a somewhat stronger statement I deeply believe that there are times when it would be immoral to the point of depravity not to take a human life. If our spouses, children, guests or others under our protection are under threat of death or terrible injury including sexual assault, violent robbery, kidnapping or arson and one can only prevent it by killing the evil doer it is morally required to pull the trigger or swing the sword. Anything else is an abdication of the most fundamental moral imperative. Any parent, wife or husband who would fail to do so for whatever personal reason is the worst sort of scum and could take lessons in moral philosophy from any cat with kittens and things with too many legs that guard their brood at the bottom of ponds.

Some of this is personal. Some is from my religion(s). "We have been told in the Torah 'If someone comes to kill you rise up and kill him first.' " or
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; ... But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevails justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression" (2:190-193).

 

[rutherford]

I wouldn't be happy about it.

:asian:

 

[morph4me]

Not sure as I would like to be on this but I believe that given the right circumstances I would take a life without blinking an eye. I truly believe that there are people out there that have or will forfeit their right to life for the things they have done in the past or will do in the future. To protect myself, family, the weak, or friends from death, torture, rape, etc. I think I might take a life.
I also believe that what is just is not always what is legal but that is a different discussion

Agreed, I wouldn't be happy about it, but I'd do it.

I don't know how you can defend yourself without being willing to do what is necessary, or how you can not understand that if you do defend yourself, you can kill someone without intending to.

You hit someone, or push someone, he falls and slams his head against a step, curb, bumper and fractures his skull and dies, you didn't intend to do anything but make him stop, but he dies.

 

[MA-Caver]

I got to disagree with you on that Bob. Killing is not wrong, murder is.

I just wanted to clarify my thoughts from my previous post.

Once someone decides to ignore your, how I hate how this phrase is percieved now, right to life, as far as I'm concerned, they forfiet their own. So if someone tries to kill me and I end up killing them, I'm performing a public service as far as I'm concerned.

I am of like mind on this pattern of thought. A person who is willing to take a life has no regard for it, otherwise they would not be willing to take it. To stop a person as far as you can from killing/murdering is noble and worth while effort. In some cases it can't be helped but to end that life to save another... especially your own and your love ones. Some people want that life taken so badly they'll stop at nothing. We've read dozens of threads in regards to this. One of the most poigant examples is the new-boyfriend killing the ex-boyfriend when he broke into their home armed with a handgun. There are other examples as well.
Nobody except those of mind to wants to take a life. Yet sometimes it's necessary because at the moment there was no-other-way. How one deals with it depends upon the person.
Sheeple won't kill the wolves no matter what. Sheep dogs will if it's necessary.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i believe i would do it if immediately threatened -- although i probably wouldn't 'kill' so much as keep hurting, which may eventually wind up killing, if you get what i'm saying.

corollary question: killing in self-defense is clear cut while you're being attacked. what about less clear-cut situations. a gang banger within arm's reach says he's going to his car to get his gun. your daughter is being stalked by a guy who says he'll kill her.

thoughts?

 

[theletch1]

In a few different discussions about MA training, I have seen comments from people saying that they will fight another person but they will not kill another person. The reason cited was one of faith.

I don't think anyone here would particularly want to kill a person.

Assuming a legally justifyable situation - would you kill?

Yes, Carol. I would.