"On Killing"....

[NARC]

I had the pleasure of sitting in on a lecture given by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of On Killing, How people commit acts of violence.
Fantastic speaker, dynamic kept our attention the full time.
Numerous issues covered ranging from "Bullet Proof Mind Set", Post Tramatic Stress Disorder, conditioning young people to kill through video game use, the incident in Beslang, Domestic and International Terrorism etc.
Most of all the issues of DENIAL that the general public has towards VIOLENCE, the idea that "it won't happen in my town"; or school or workplace....
There is much more to write but I'll leave that to "Chad"...
I would highly recommend those of you in military/LEO/Security fields to seek out Grossman's lectures!!

I will leave you with one of the following scriptures cited by Grossman : Romans 5

 

[Shirt Ripper]

Cool. I've read "On Killing" and it is excellent. Anyone read "On Combat?" I have it on good authority that it is excellent as well.

 

[still learning]

Hello, His subject on "Killology" looks very interesting. He mention that our mass media influence more killings of people in our society. The more we see it the more it has an inpact on the behavior of people.

X-box, play stations....do you feel is adding to this?..............Aloha

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I've listened to a number of interviews with the author and I think he makes a lot of good points and his work is essential reading, IMO, for those in security professions. However, I think he does overemphasize the role of video games. I could play "Doom" all day long and not go out and shoot somebody. While media, IMO, can contribute to violent behavior, the person has to already be disfunctional to act violently. Perhaps he would agree with me, though, if I were to speak with him in person.

 

[CuongNhuka]

The "it wont happen to me" thing is write. Some dude rapped a girl at my school. The staff is planning on having all the students go to the auditorium to preach how it will never happan again, it wasn't there fault, and a bunch of other stuff that isn't really true. They could have done something to prevent it. How is anouther matter.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[BallistikMike]

This is a fantastic book. One of the few that you can reread throughout life and gain new perspectives that you didnt have before in life.

Its one of those books that grows with you as you grow.

 

[CuongNhuka]

mikes discription sounds like one that Musashi gave "The Book of Five Rings".

 

[BallistikMike]

More then likely that is why the thought came into my head.

 

[NARC]

Mike you cite that you train in WWII Combatives? under who and where?
Is it Gung Ho Chuan by any chance. Great stuff! currently training with
a guy who has background in it.

 

[dearnis.com]

Narc was kind enough to arrange for me to come down for the day; very, very, worthwhile session. Grossman is a fantastic motivational speaker, and bring a wealth of needed information to the table.

On Combat is excellent as well.

As to the role of media violence, I used to think he over-stated the case. I am still not 100% convinced, but I am more persuaded by his more recent work. His point is not that violent video games creat school shooters, but rather that a major common thread among school shooters is violent video gaming as their ONLY social interaction.
Grossman goes out of his way to state that those involved in sports, martial arts, student government, etc. are not the problem. He also discusses the role of psych meds in shootings (none).
Maybe the most disturbing element of his class was a discussion of the deliberate targeting of of schools and school children by Islamic terrorists, focusing on Beslan as a case study. Taking advantage of his suggestions for further reading I'm seeing that, if anything, he understated the case.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Grossman is somewhat controversial...and I have to confess I have some problems with some of his premises.

His attitude on video games is unfounded, and panders to a prudish and paranoid segment of our culture that runs across the liberal and conservative spectrum.

We follow a tendency to blame fix. Video games lead to violence, pornography leads to rape, marijuana leads to harder drugs...all premised incorrectly and with faulty data to support it. It leads to a growing mythology and a "Chicken Little" mentality.

Video games have increased in popularity over the last decade, yet violent crime decreased during that time according to the Department of Justice.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

We all know kids who have played violent games. Somehow the vast majority of them don't turn into raging sociopaths.

This process is nothing new. In the 19th century novels were supposed to have corrupted young women. In the 1920's people fretted about the influence of "moving pictures" on the morals of our youth. In the fifties it was rock music (Elvis in particular), and--I'm not making this up--comic books featuring Superman and Batman. Fringe elements today lambast Harry Potter for "teaching witchcraft," and of course more mainstream critics attack video games.

There is, interestingly, an occasional splitting of hairs. I know Evangelicals who will allow their children to play military based "first person shooters," but won't let them play "Doom." If it is has a semi-patriotic and pro-military theme, apparently, it causes no harm to the child. If it involves shooting fantastical demons with the occasional earthy invective, then it is evil. "SOCOM" is okay...but don't let your child play "Tomb Raider." Lara Croft is far too scantily clad and might arouse unholy passions in a tender soul.


Regards,


Steve

 

[NARC]

Steve if you can go to one of Grossman's lectures and see what you think then...

 

[CuongNhuka]

My thoughts on whether or not porn will make you a rapist, video games make you violent, and reading Harry potter is going to make you a witch is, it’s BS. The fact of the matter is few people of the Wicca faith (I would know) have actually read Harry potter, or almost any of the really popular forms of fantasy that are blamed for pagans in America. The ones that have that I’ve talked to say that if they weren’t pagans, they’d stay that way because of how ridicules they are.
Porn and violent games may link most rapist and violent offenders, but it also links most Americans ages 12 to 25 (I know 12 seems young, but it is true). As a matter of fact a friend of mine (who’s a Buddhist) loves a lot of violent video games. It is true that people can be massively desensitized to violence and gore from playing them. And some people may be temped to act out what they have played, or may actually do it. But that doesn’t mean they will. Very little of human behavior is that easily affected, at least from what I have seen. A lot of it is a predisposition to it. Or associating with less then honorables.
Just my thoughts.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John

 

[hongkongfooey]

Grossman is somewhat controversial...and I have to confess I have some problems with some of his premises.

His attitude on video games is unfounded, and panders to a prudish and paranoid segment of our culture that runs across the liberal and conservative spectrum.

We follow a tendency to blame fix. Video games lead to violence, pornography leads to rape, marijuana leads to harder drugs...all premised incorrectly and with faulty data to support it. It leads to a growing mythology and a "Chicken Little" mentality.

Video games have increased in popularity over the last decade, yet violent crime decreased during that time according to the Department of Justice.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

We all know kids who have played violent games. Somehow the vast majority of them don't turn into raging sociopaths.

This process is nothing new. In the 19th century novels were supposed to have corrupted young women. In the 1920's people fretted about the influence of "moving pictures" on the morals of our youth. In the fifties it was rock music (Elvis in particular), and--I'm not making this up--comic books featuring Superman and Batman. Fringe elements today lambast Harry Potter for "teaching witchcraft," and of course more mainstream critics attack video games.

There is, interestingly, an occasional splitting of hairs. I know Evangelicals who will allow their children to play military based "first person shooters," but won't let them play "Doom." If it is has a semi-patriotic and pro-military theme, apparently, it causes no harm to the child. If it involves shooting fantastical demons with the occasional earthy invective, then it is evil. "SOCOM" is okay...but don't let your child play "Tomb Raider." Lara Croft is far too scantily clad and might arouse unholy passions in a tender soul.


Regards,


Steve

Excellent post Steve.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Grossman is somewhat controversial...and I have to confess I have some problems with some of his premises.

His attitude on video games is unfounded, and panders to a prudish and paranoid segment of our culture that runs across the liberal and conservative spectrum.

We follow a tendency to blame fix. Video games lead to violence, pornography leads to rape, marijuana leads to harder drugs...all premised incorrectly and with faulty data to support it. It leads to a growing mythology and a "Chicken Little" mentality.

Of course, as violent crime is in the decline, it is evident that video games, in and of themselves, likely don't lead the average child to a life of crime. I do believe, however, that those with a predisposition to violence are likely further encouraged and desensitized by ultra-violent media. I don't support this, however, as a reason to ban that material, anymore than I blame guns for violence. I believe that every person is, ultimatley, responsible for his actions.

As for marijuana leading to harder drugs, it is clear that those with a predisposition to chemical dependency, tend to branch out their dependency. In that sense, marijuana does lead to harder drugs. Very few people suddenly just start doing harder drugs. They begin with marijuana, that's why they call it a gateway drug.

Of course, that doesn't mean that marijuana automatically causes everyone to do cocaine. However, the very lifestyle itself increases contact with, the likelyhood of use, of other drugs.

Video games have increased in popularity over the last decade, yet violent crime decreased during that time according to the Department of Justice.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/cv2.htm

We all know kids who have played violent games. Somehow the vast majority of them don't turn into raging sociopaths.

Just as I said. However, the reason that violence is dropping, is that we are increasingly incarcerated the said sociopaths...the ones, I might, most likely affected by violent media. Again, however, not justification for banning the media. I find incarceration works subtably.

This process is nothing new. In the 19th century novels were supposed to have corrupted young women. In the 1920's people fretted about the influence of "moving pictures" on the morals of our youth. In the fifties it was rock music (Elvis in particular), and--I'm not making this up--comic books featuring Superman and Batman. Fringe elements today lambast Harry Potter for "teaching witchcraft," and of course more mainstream critics attack video games.

Yes, but that presumes that everything we believe is ultimately wrong. Asbestos causes lung cancer, high fat diets result in heart disease, some things are actually true. They aren't all false because we disagree with them originally.

It is a faulty assumption to believe that simply because it was believed that Batman and Superman would cause behavior problems, and they didn't, then any such beliefs about anything else are of necessecity wrong.

It is possible to assume that, while Superman and Batman and comic books might not influence aberrant behavior, that Natural Born Killers and Grand Theft Auto might. Each should be examined seperately, based on their own merits.

There is, interestingly, an occasional splitting of hairs. I know Evangelicals who will allow their children to play military based "first person shooters," but won't let them play "Doom." If it is has a semi-patriotic and pro-military theme, apparently, it causes no harm to the child. If it involves shooting fantastical demons with the occasional earthy invective, then it is evil. "SOCOM" is okay...but don't let your child play "Tomb Raider." Lara Croft is far too scantily clad and might arouse unholy passions in a tender soul.

That's not really it. That has as much to do with the cultural heritage of violence in this country as even religious belief. We find it easier to identify with certain types of violence than other types of violence. We become somewhat uncomfortable, however, when we begin mixing violence with sex. Puritanical? Maybe, but it could also be that we find mixing the two rather dangerous to the psyche. Who knows.

At any rate, I find the odd violent video game here and there pleasureable myself. I've been playing them for years, along with being a fan of other violent media. Do I want the government to ban them? Absolutely not. I'm an adult, and I should have access to them if I want. Same with pornography. Does that mean I want my children exposed to it? Also, absolutely not.

Have violent video games and other media warped me? Maybe, maybe not. I'll allow you to be the judge.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

At any rate, I find the odd violent video game here and there pleasureable myself. I've been playing them for years, along with being a fan of other violent media. Do I want the government to ban them? Absolutely not. I'm an adult, and I should have access to them if I want. Same with pornography. Does that mean I want my children exposed to it? Also, absolutely not.

That seems to be the solution regarding violent games and movies - parents DON'T buy them for your kids. That's an easy answer right there. Don't buy your 12 year old a video game that has them stealing cars and running over police officers for points.

 

[MJS]

That seems to be the solution regarding violent games and movies - parents DON'T buy them for your kids. That's an easy answer right there. Don't buy your 12 year old a video game that has them stealing cars and running over police officers for points.

Good point. A 10yo is going to be getting their money from their parents, and will most likely be driven to the mall or store by the parents as well. If they are not keeping tabs on what their child is doing, what they buy, etc., then IMO, they have nobody to blame except themselves. Of course, we all know how that goes though.

Mike

 

[Shirt Ripper]

I agree that violent video games do not necessarily produce violent behaviors. I do believe that they can be a contributing factor when used for that purpose, perhaps. I also believe that reading "Harry Potter" is extensively damaging to minds young and old.

 

[Peter Steeves]

While I have not yet read "On Killing" or "On Combat" (but will be doing so asap . . . I thought it might help to introduce two texts related to this discussion:

"Protecting the Gift" by Gavin de Becker is more along the lines of how children can be influenced by bad things around them (and how to protect them against such things). Great read - and VERY anti-gun.

Note: Mr. deBecker also is the lead figure of a prominent executive protection firm (and thereby having more armed citizens might impact his income).

In contrast is "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. Read the 2nd edition, because it takes into account (and quotes) many of his detractors. Mr. Lott asserts that not only has crime been on the decline, but has declined significantly when citizens can defend themselves (note that it rises in neighboring areas without such laws in place, too).

He also notes that schools have become greater targets because of the abundance of laws which prohibit weapons within 1000 feet of a school. This is in stark contrast to a few decades ago when many schools had shooting clubs (and university scholarships based on them).

Related to an earlier post, Mr. Lott notes that arrest rates have a significant impact on theft (which often goes up when citizens are armed - criminals are smart enough to "attack" things like cars instead of armed people).

Finally, while I lived in Japan I was inundated with more media violence and sexuality than I am here in America. Japan has a MUCH more open access culture to things like this, and with a MUCH lower incidence of violence.

So, I do not believe that these things are the causes of violent acts. Now, I *do* think that there is something disturbing with the idea of kids playing cop-killer games and such - I simply don't like that.

Are we really more desensitized recently because of these things? Really? Go back 100 years to when there were no TVs or Playboy magazines . . . but more people were born at home, more people died at home, more diseases killed people in un-pretty ways . . . Only in the last handful of decades have we whisked away the uglier side of life from our daily grind.

Now what's the answer? . . . It's all personal responsibility. Live life like a leader. Take responsibility for your own actions, and strongly influence those you can to be responsible, too. This is not a religious motivation, but a safety/peace minded one. Proactive actions is what's most important.

 

[Cthulhu]

I can't take him that seriously because of his views about video games being the blame of kids killing people. Someone was tweaked to begin with. If it wasn't video games, it'd be something else that would set them off.

If you're going to blame video games for kids killing people, then you'd may as well blame C&W music for incest.

Cthulhu