Olympic style sparring vs. traditional TKD: why all the fuss??

[Daniel Sullivan]

On quite a few threads here and on other MA boards, I see this subject come up whenever taekwondo is discussed and particularly with the Olympics having just concluded. Those who practice primarily traditional martial arts or non WTF taekwondo take a lot of shots at the olympic style of sparring and some those who participate in it go to great lengths to explain why Olympic sparring isn't a martial art.

I am always a bit bemused by this. As a kendo instructor, I teach an art that has an 'art' side and a sport side. On the art side are forms, step sparring, and in our school, elements of iaito and kenjutsu. On the sport side is a fencing style characterized by a bamboo sword and protective gear with limited target areas and limited selection of techniques. Nobody complains that the tournament style is in some way not a martial art or is somehow inferior to the martial art side. It is simply a part of kendo and kendoka have no issue with it. Those who do not have an interest in sparring either focus on the forms and step sparring or seek out a school that is entirely 'art' (such as an iaito school), and have their respect for the sport kendo. The kendoka have their respect for them. No issues.

So why is it that WTF/Olympic style sparring is often such a hot button? Is there some reason that it isn't looked upon in a similar fashion without the animosity I sometimes see towards it? I have seen it called everything from silly to garbage, which I personally find a bit extreme, when a simple, 'it's not for me' would do just fine. While I think that it has its flaws, what doesn't? I've also noticed that bad behaviour by some of the athletes has been used as on opportunity in various places to say that the sport should not even exist.

On the other side, there are some, the Lopez family seemingly among them, who would separate the sport from the art. Some go so far as to answer any criticism from the MA community with the line, 'it isn't a martial art.' I don't quite understand that either. The sport of taekwondo is tied, no matter how you slice it, with the martial art from which it came. It uses punches, kicks, and blocks from the full martial art, limits the use of techniques and target area, and has a point system. You don't have to spar to learn taekwondo, but if you want to learn the Olympic sparring style, you certainly can.

So why the big divide?

Daniel

 

[FearlessFreep]

Partially because it is an olympic sport and as such brings a lot attention to the art. Positive in the sense of popularity but negative in the sense that is *all* some people see of the art, including other martial artists

 

[terryl965]

Partially because it is an olympic sport and as such brings a lot attention to the art. Positive in the sense of popularity but negative in the sense that is *all* some people see of the art, including other martial artists

FF is right nobody looks beyod the sport side playeds with hands down and just checking and waiting. It goes against everything a SD principle art delivers.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But if they don't look beyond it, do you think that they will then go out and get into fights with their hands down?

Or, if they never look beyond that, but decide to take taekwondo, unless they go to a sport only school, with no SD element, they'll learn very quickly that there is much more to taekwondo than just the sport element.

Also, 99% of the people who never look beyond it would never take taekwondo anyway, even if the sport was more like the SD.

Daniel

 

[mango.man]

FF is right nobody looks beyod the sport side playeds with hands down and just checking and waiting. It goes against everything a SD principle art delivers.

That is why people like me think that we should just change the name of the sport. I propose Karkwonjitdo

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Karkwonjitdo? Sounds catchy, though I have no clue what it means.

Mango, I know that you draw a very definative line of separation between the two, and enthusiastically promote the sport on the forums. And Terry and FF feel that the sport should be separated for their own reasons while not being enthusiastic about it.

But why do you feel that the sport should be separated? Can it simply not exist as the sport aspect of taekwondo, being treated as an athletic competition with its base in the martial art, much as the sport of kendo has its basis in the art of kendo?

Daniel

 

[mango.man]

Simply because there are already so many different variations of Taekwondo and all with their own set of rules for life as well as sport. Let's just separate this and then ITF people won't tune in expecting to see punches to the face. And ATA people won't tune in and wonder why they dont stop and reset after each point is scored. And Martial Artists won't tune in and wonder why they scream and pump their fists in the air. Etc.

 

[terryl965]

That is why people like me think that we should just change the name of the sport. I propose Karkwonjitdo

I agree mango.man a name change would help both the sport side and the MA side. I can never see this happening to many people would need to agree.

 

[terryl965]

Karkwonjitdo? Sounds catchy, though I have no clue what it means.

Mango, I know that you draw a very definative line of separation between the two, and enthusiastically promote the sport on the forums. And Terry and FF feel that the sport should be separated for their own reasons while not being enthusiastic about it.

But why do you feel that the sport should be separated? Can it simply not exist as the sport aspect of taekwondo, being treated as an athletic competition with its base in the martial art, much as the sport of kendo has its basis in the art of kendo?

Daniel

This is not true I am enthusiatic about the sport side of TKD, my reason is simple I trained in the original side of TKD combat ready for a better word, got envolved in the sportside about ten years ago, we do both for all students that want it. I guess we need seperation so the Art of TKD and the sport of TKD can grow in harmony.

 

[Andrew Green]

I agree mango.man a name change would help both the sport side and the MA side. I can never see this happening to many people would need to agree.

Not to mention the big and obvious question, which side gets to keep "Tae Kwon Do" as the name?

I just can't see what the big deal is, "Tae Kwon Do" is just doing what other names have done, becoming generic. Karate & Kung fu are no different, in fact I would say there is even more variation within different branches of them then there are in TKD right now. Given more time it will spread out even more.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Not to mention the big and obvious question, which side gets to keep "Tae Kwon Do" as the name?

I just can't see what the big deal is, "Tae Kwon Do" is just doing what other names have done, becoming generic. Karate & Kung fu are no different, in fact I would say there is even more variation within different branches of them then there are in TKD right now. Given more time it will spread out even more.

I mentioned that in a post a few weeks back. That the term "Tae Kwon Do" was a generic name to make the marketing of Korean Martial Arts easier to the rest of the world, and there's a lot you can put under that umbrella.

 

[crushing]

Not to mention the big and obvious question, which side gets to keep "Tae Kwon Do" as the name?

Given what strikes earn points, I thought it would be obvious that Olympic TKD should be simply called Taedo. Well, I suppose NoKwondo would work too!

 

[Xue Sheng]

I no longer train TKD but when I did it was Pre-Olympic and we were trained in close range fighting as well as high kicks and there were take downs and strikes to areas that would not exactly give you points in Olympic TKD, actually they would get you kicked out. It became an Olympic sport while I trained it and my teacher did teach both sides, although he thought most protective gear was pretty funny.

There is no problem, IMO, teaching both sides but many TKD school do not these days. They ONLY teach the Olympic side that is, IMO, the problem. My last step into the TKD world was by invitation and I had been training CMA for a few years by then. We went there for sparing and upon arrival they TKD teacher told us that we could only hit certain areas and we could not use joint locks and we could not stick to the other guy. After hearing this I sat down and did not spar. He later did ask me why and I told him he pretty much told me I could not fight the way I had been trained to and that I had to fight like a sport TKD guy and since I was not a sport TKD guy I did not see any reason to spar.

That is the problem I have with Olympic TKD

 

[punisher73]

On quite a few threads here and on other MA boards, I see this subject come up whenever taekwondo is discussed and particularly with the Olympics having just concluded. Those who practice primarily traditional martial arts or non WTF taekwondo take a lot of shots at the olympic style of sparring and some those who participate in it go to great lengths to explain why Olympic sparring isn't a martial art.

I am always a bit bemused by this. As a kendo instructor, I teach an art that has an 'art' side and a sport side. On the art side are forms, step sparring, and in our school, elements of iaito and kenjutsu. On the sport side is a fencing style characterized by a bamboo sword and protective gear with limited target areas and limited selection of techniques. Nobody complains that the tournament style is in some way not a martial art or is somehow inferior to the martial art side. It is simply a part of kendo and kendoka have no issue with it. Those who do not have an interest in sparring either focus on the forms and step sparring or seek out a school that is entirely 'art' (such as an iaito school), and have their respect for the sport kendo. The kendoka have their respect for them. No issues.

In a way you are comparing apples to oranges. With Kendo, you learn the same material whether you want to spar/compete or if you don't compete in the art. Now, talk to someone who practices ken-jutsu and related japanese sword arts and they badmouth kendo and talk about how the sport has no relation to real swordfighting and that stuff only works in sportfighting. THAT is the argument you are getting with the differing branches of TKD, one is based on a sport and fights according to that sport, the other branch(es) try to maintain the fighting art and are not concerned with just the limited sports rules.

 

[zDom]

Here's what part of the problem is, as I see it:

When I heard TKD was becoming an Olympic sport, I thought: wow! awesome! Not only can keep myself in shape and learn to defend myself, but I could, conceivably, even compete in an Olympic sport!

It didn't take long for me to discover that Olympic TKD was not FOR people doing TKD! Almost immediately, people figured out how to "game the game" and began inventing a NEW TKD that had almost nothing to do with REAL TKD.

And Olympic competition was ONLY FOR the people who were training this new TKD.

They (the Olympic-style TKD folk) decided that only arc kicks (they call them "roundhouse kick"), Axe Kicks (which, as they do them, are very often Crescent kicks) and spinning kicks are "effective" and narrowed down their training to include only those.

These Olympic Style TKD folk race up through the ranks (it doesn't take nearly as long, does it, when you only have a couple of kicks to learn and don't really care if the forms are done correctly — or "redefine" the forms so that they are SUPPOSED to be done as the sport TKD folk were doing them: lazy stances ands sloppy indistinct, non-practical for combat movements).

Officials are all FROM this alternate-reality TKD (raced up through the ranks — many can't fight their way out of a paper sack or do a decent form if their lives depended on it — but what does that matter when they have a 5th or 6th degree "black belt", judging credentials from the WTF, and a snappy suit?), and so they have these preconceived notions about what is and what is not a point.

After all, THEY never managed to throw a sidekick or punch with any "trembling shock" (nor ever FELT one ...), so SURELY that silly traditionalist using them in the ring is just playing patty-cake on the hogu*— no points for HIM!


And so, in short, I feel as if the Olympic TKD folk HIJACKED the art I used to study, the art I LOVE, and distorted it into something laughable — and then the world began to THINK and BELIEVE that

OLYMPIC style TKD IS Taekwondo!!!


And its not. It's a game that SHOULD be played by REAL TKD'ists, but was taken over, highjacked by folk who use the TKD name, wear "TKD" rank, and don't know any more about the art of TKD than I had learned by GREEN belt.

Animosity? Hell ya. They stole a game that coulda ended up being really fun and ruined it.

The excitement that I felt when I heard TKD was going to become an Olympic sport was replaced by a hope that they really WILL remove it from the list of Olympic sports so all these

USURPERS

will dry up and blow away.

Good luck, Karate folk, in your drive to see Karate become an Olympic sport. But don't get your hopes up TOO high. It might not turn out like you think it should.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The USAT can start by changing the rules so that fighters who are not Ji Do Kwan are equal to those that are. The USAT is a Ji Do Kwan organization. If you are not JDK, good luck.

This is reposted from Terry's thread, 'can we overcome the Olympics?' I thought that it was an interesting observation. I ask the question; if this is indeed the case, would simply calling it Ji Do Kwan be appropriate?

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Simply because there are already so many different variations of Taekwondo and all with their own set of rules for life as well as sport. Let's just separate this and then ITF people won't tune in expecting to see punches to the face. And ATA people won't tune in and wonder why they dont stop and reset after each point is scored. And Martial Artists won't tune in and wonder why they scream and pump their fists in the air. Etc.

One of the issues that confuses things, Mango, is that Olympic schools that teach it soley as a sport still have belts and traditional rankings. Why not do what fencing did; have an A-E rating for competative fencers and a U rating (unrated) for those who do not actively compete. All ratings are based upon competative status and competative record and go up and down depending on the competitor's status. Why not just dispense with belts entirely? That would certainly help to separate the two.

But when you say that the Olympic sport TKD is not a martial art, but have the traditional trappings, don't you think that that lends to the confusion that those unfamiliar with the Olympic style have?

Regarding the fist pumping, I see that as a separate issue. That comes down to sportsmanship. I'm not personally averse to it, but I'm not in favor of it either. When I score a touch in epee, I don't shout 'yes!' and pump my fist. Generally, neither so those I fence with. And many of them are USFA competative fencers. The coach there also discourages such behavior and calls it unsportsmanlike.

I don't think that anyone wonders why they pump their fists; we all watch other competative sports or have played in sports at some point in our lives. Personally, I just find it juvenile and on the Olympic stage, I consider it out of place, Taekwondo or not.

Daniel

 

[Kwanjang]

ZDom, I beleive you are dead on the money with your post! I like how you used the term "highjacked"! You and I (and probably many other on this forum) Have witnessed beautifil, powerful, almost cat like TKDist point sparring. The matches- full of counter spinning kicks, controled well placed hand techniques. No hiting after break, No raising of the hand on a technique that scored. I could go on..grumble, grumble.

 

[zDom]

Regarding the fist pumping, I see that as a separate issue. That comes down to sportsmanship. I'm not personally averse to it, but I'm not in favor of it either. When I score a touch in epee, I don't shout 'yes!' and pump my fist. Generally, neither so those I fence with. And many of them are USFA competative fencers. The coach there also discourages such behavior and calls it unsportsmanlike.

I don't think that anyone wonders why they pump their fists; we all watch other competative sports or have played in sports at some point in our lives. Personally, I just find it juvenile and on the Olympic stage, I consider it out of place, Taekwondo or not.

Daniel

I agree. I was brought up to show class and sportsmanship — after all, anyone who has the courage to get in there and risk injury is worthy of our (mutual) respect!

It seems those that DON'T have this type of class and sportsmanship are, well, MISSING something; they didn't end up with the development of character that I (and others) associate with training in martial arts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree. Funny thing is, Scott, the athletes that we collectively seem to respect most are the ones who show humility in victory.

Everyone (hyperbole, not truly everyone) hates Tom Brady and the Pats. Not because they suck; they don't at all. But they're arrogant about it. There's allegations of cheating (spygate). People don't like them because they're perceived as unsportsmanlike. They're perceived as 'win at any cost'. Then there's Brady's public breakup with his girlfriend and dating of Giselle that generated a lot of news.

On the other hand, everyone likes Joe Gibbs, even if they don't like the Redskins and even if they can't stand the team owner, Dan Snyder. Gibbs is a good coach with four superbowls on his resume, but he carries himself as a humble guy.

Evander Holyfield was very gracious in his victory over Mike Tyson and magnanimous regarding the ear biting. Everyone respected that.

While I don't know that he coined it, Maitre Adam Adrian Crown (fencing master) once said that it cost nothing to be polite in victory. He also advocates the idea that if a viewer were to see only the two opponents at the conclusion of the match, they should not be able to tell who was the winner and who was the loser. Each opponent should simply salute, bow, or handshake and acknowledge the other with a 'good game/match/bout/whatever' and then exit the strip/ring/field/whatever.

Though this comes from the old school fencing world, I believe that it should apply to all athletics: "Humble in victory, gracious in defeat"

Daniel