Oldest Forms

[Bret Hinds]

Does anyone have a clue as to what the oldest forms are? or form?something before the 1870's. I know the the influnce of China and Japan but before them?

 

[stoneheart]

There are no uniquely Korean forms which have survived the various invasions and purges Korea has suffered. I have read research that indicated the martial arts we know where practiced by Koreans centuries ago were probably imported from China due to the similarities of weapons found in various archaeological excavations.

 

[exile]

There are no uniquely Korean forms which have survived the various invasions and purges Korea has suffered. I have read research that indicated the martial arts we know where practiced by Koreans centuries ago were probably imported from China due to the similarities of weapons found in various archaeological excavations.

Stoneheart—you heard right. The case is actually stronger than this: the documentary evidence is as clear as it can be that the martial arts practiced in Korea, including whatever it was in the way of empty-hand techniques that the Hwarang Do of Silla and other Korean variants of the `Knights of the Round Table' practiced from the Three Kingdoms era on, were nothing more or less than the chuan fa—Chinese `boxing'—of the time, one or more of the innumerable northern Chinese styles that were brought into the Korean peninsula as a result of the far-reaching cultural contact between the powerful Chinese empire and their client kingdoms on the Korean peninsula; and the same for weapons combat. If you want to see the detailed documentation, it's available in the work of Dakin Burdick, the preeminent Korean MA historian, two of whose more important papers are at

http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html

and

`People and Events of Taekwondo's Formative Years' Journal of Asian Martial Arts' 6.1 (1997); the first is a somewhat expanded version of the second. Burdick's work is independently corroborated in Stan Henning's `Traditional Korean Martial Arts', Journal of Asian Martial Arts 9.1(2000). The overwhelming conclusion from the total body of documentation available: the earliest Korean martial arts were borrowed from Chinese practice, China continued to have a dominating influence on Korean MAs, and when Chinese influence waned, it was Japanese budo systems which filled the void, right up through the beginning of the Occupation phase in the aftermath of the Russo-Japanese War until the end of WWII. You should check out these sources and think about the arguments and the use of evidence that Burdick, Henning and the sources they cite invoke. So far as I can tell, there is simply no defensible alternatives to Burdick and Henning's analysis of the full evidence base.

This preponderance of evidence in favor of the thoroughly Chinese platform on which the ancient KMAs were built, and the Japanese source of the modern KMAs, seems to disturb some people, to the point where they simply deny the historically available evidence in favor of fantasy and legendary history. I've no idea why that is, but it's not unique to this particular question; there are also people who insist that the Inca pyramids, Easter Island statues and various ancient European monuments simply could not have gotten where they are without the intervention of extraterrestrials to guide construction operations from their interstellar space vessels, in spite of the fact that the ingenious but earthbound technological bases of these various architectural achievements is now well-known and well-attested. Well, I guess it's a harmless enough sort of fantasizing...

 

[Bret Hinds]

One can see the influnce of the Heian Kata's or Pinon's under TKD but what was the influnce of the early form's before the Japanese influnce?Did the Han or Mongel influnce the Northern most Korean school's?The Hwrang schools what was there tie to the other schools? All the best in the arts

 

[exile]

One can see the influnce of the Heian Kata's or Pinon's under TKD but what was the influnce of the early form's before the Japanese influnce?Did the Han or Mongel influnce the Northern most Korean school's?The Hwrang schools what was there tie to the other schools? All the best in the arts

This question is addressed in the work by Dakin Burdick and Stan Henning respectively that I mentioned in my previous post, in articles in Journal of Asian Martial Arts written during the past decade, that so far represent the state of the art in TKD history; also check out

http://www.budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html

for an expanded version of Burdick's 1997 JAMA article. The short answer to your question appears to be yes, definitely. The Hwarang were not practicing some obscure, ancient precursor to modern TKD. They were practicing a form of chuan fa that was probably widespred in Han China. There is absolutely nothing to connect anything the Hwarang were doing to the current, very recent set of KMAs. If anyone tries to tell you different, ask politely but firmly for the new evidence that they've turned up in the interval since the exhaustive reviews by Burdick and Henning respectively based on all the available documentary and archaeological evidence for ancient Korean culture...

 

[Chizikunbo]

Does anyone have a clue as to what the oldest forms are? or form?something before the 1870's. I know the the influnce of China and Japan but before them?

The sometimes disappointing truth is that there are no original korean forms that date that far back in existance today, that we know of. The oldest that could be construed as being korean would be the Kwon Bop Bo (Kwon Bup Bu) form that is illustrated in the Mu Yea Dobo Tongji (available from Tuttle Press). Kuk Sool has some interesting open hand forms but there is no for sure history, but they look very chinese, In Hyuk Suh claims different however. Only he knows for sure.
Tae Kwon Do's older brother would be Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do, the oldest form there would be Pal Che (Bassai) or Nahanji (Nae Bu Jin)..
--Josh

 

[exile]

The sometimes disappointing truth is that there are no original korean forms that date that far back in existance today, that we know of. The oldest that could be construed as being korean would be the Kwon Bop Bo (Kwon Bup Bu) form that is illustrated in the Mu Yea Dobo Tongji (available from Tuttle Press).

Actually, Chiz'bo, the case for `ancient' TKD forms is even is even worse than this: The massive late 18th c. Korean martial arts manual Muye dobo tongji, supposedly an encyclopædia of native Korean combat techniques, turns out, according to Burdick (1997), to be `nearly identical to the Jixiao Xinshu (New Book for Effective Discipline)... by the Chinese General Qi Jiguang (1528--1587)', written nearly two and a half centuries earlier. The translation and transliteration task involved, as Burdick notes, would have been well within the capabilities of the Muye dobo tongji's author, `a scholar famed for his erudition in classical Chinese' according to Henning's 2000 Journal of Asian Martial Arts article I've cited in my previous replies to Bret and Chinto. The fact that this supposed repository of Korean MAs is essentially a translation of a Chinese military manual, and that Kwan Bop is nothing other than a Korean borrowing, with slight corresponding modifications in pronunciation, of chuan fa, cuts the legs out from under any attempt to provide a documentary source for `ancient' KMA forms and practice. As Burdick points out, virtually everything we can identify on the Korean peninsula as a genuine fighting art, weapons or empty-hand, can be confidently identified as having a Chinese origin up until the various avatars of Korean Shotokan karate that became repackaged as TKD and TSD in the 1950s.

Kuk Sool has some interesting open hand forms but there is no for sure history, but they look very chinese, In Hyuk Suh claims different however. Only he knows for sure.
Tae Kwon Do's older brother would be Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do, the oldest form there would be Pal Che (Bassai) or Nahanji (Nae Bu Jin)..
--Josh

... both of which TSD forms of course are Okinawan by way (some would claim a long way) of Japan.

I myself find nothing disappointing or regrettable about this state of affairs. The lack of a genuine ancient lineage doesn't detract one bit from the potential effectiveness of KMAs in terms of their primary purpose, which was personal self-defense under difficult and dangerous conditions. The Korean armed forces showed, to the great cost of the North Koreans in the Korean war and the North Vietnamese and VC in the Vietnam War, just how savagely effective was the version of TKD that General Choi and his associates developed and taught to the ROK infantry and Marine units. The KMAs have all the firepower for CQ self-defense that anyone could want, if they're trained that way. Ancient origins are just the icing on the cake. As John Bishop pointed out in an old post I cited yesterday in MJS's `martial arts evolving' thread, many of the most popular and highly regarded MAs postdate the invention of the internal combustion engine.

 

[Chizikunbo]

Actually, Chiz'bo, the case for `ancient' TKD forms is even is even worse than this: The massive late 18th c. Korean martial arts manual Muye dobo tongji, supposedly an encyclopædia of native Korean combat techniques, turns out, according to Burdick (1997), to be `nearly identical to the Jixiao Xinshu (New Book for Effective Discipline)... by the Chinese General Qi Jiguang (1528--1587)', written nearly two and a half centuries earlier. The translation and transliteration task involved, as Burdick notes, would have been well within the capabilities of the Muye dobo tongji's author, `a scholar famed for his erudition in classical Chinese' according to Henning's 2000 Journal of Asian Martial Arts article I've cited in my previous replies to Bret and Chinto. The fact that this supposed repository of Korean MAs is essentially a translation of a Chinese military manual, and that Kwan Bop is nothing other than a Korean borrowing, with slight corresponding modifications in pronunciation, of chuan fa, cuts the legs out from under any attempt to provide a documentary source for `ancient' KMA forms and practice. As Burdick points out, virtually everything we can identify on the Korean peninsula as a genuine fighting art, weapons or empty-hand, can be confidently identified as having a Chinese origin up until the various avatars of Korean Shotokan karate that became repackaged as TKD and TSD in the 1950s.

Note I said "Construed" ;-) I am aware that the Kwon Bup Bo is simply Qi Ji Kwangs 32 postures...

... both of which TSD forms of course are Okinawan by way (some would claim a long way) of Japan.

I myself find nothing disappointing or regrettable about this state of affairs. The lack of a genuine ancient lineage doesn't detract one bit from the potential effectiveness of KMAs in terms of their primary purpose, which was personal self-defense under difficult and dangerous conditions. The Korean armed forces showed, to the great cost of the North Koreans in the Korean war and the North Vietnamese and VC in the Vietnam War, just how savagely effective was the version of TKD that General Choi and his associates developed and taught to the ROK infantry and Marine units. The KMAs have all the firepower for CQ self-defense that anyone could want, if they're trained that way. Ancient origins are just the icing on the cake. As John Bishop pointed out in an old post I cited yesterday in MJS's `martial arts evolving' thread, many of the most popular and highly regarded MAs postdate the invention of the internal combustion engine.

I agree 100% In reality it does not matter if one can trace back some ancient lineage. What it comes down to is does it work? When the practicioner steps on the mat can they stand up?
BTW please just call me Josh...
--josh

 

[exile]

Note I said "Construed" ;-) I am aware that the Kwon Bup Bo is simply Qi Ji Kwangs 32 postures...

Right—alas, there are a number of people out there who don't realize this (including the author of one really awful article in the latest Black Belt mag, but then, careful history isn't exactly what they're known for... )

I agree 100% In reality it does not matter if one can trace back some ancient lineage. What it comes down to is does it work? When the practicioner steps on the mat can they stand up?

Yup!

BTW please just call me Josh...
--josh

You got it, Josh, and a bonus as well to go along with it, for some really good posts...

 

[Chizikunbo]

Right—alas, there are a number of people out there who don't realize this (including the author of one really awful article in the latest Black Belt mag, but then, careful history isn't exactly what they're known for... )





Yup!



You got it, Josh, and a bonus as well to go along with it, for some really good posts...

I agree 100% about BB Mag, I dont actually bother with it anymore...The only one I tend to read is Asian Journal, and for entertainment purposes TKD times ^_^ I guess in the earlier days of BBmag Mr. Robert Young used to only allow articles with cited references, well I guess that didnt last. It seems that in the world of martial arts periodicals nothing with real substance stands up, only the folks with the most $$$ and articles that can make the most $$$ with the main readership (which seems to these days be targeted at teens very young adults).
take care,
--josh

 

[exile]

I agree 100% about BB Mag, I dont actually bother with it anymore...The only one I tend to read is Asian Journal,

... which actually has more info in one issue than a years' worth of most other NAmerican MA mags put together....

and for entertainment purposes TKD times ^_^

.... all the feel-good contentless columns and articles by and about the guys who, just by coincident, have two pages' worth of advertising in the issue... I know, it's so transparent what they're doing that it really is funny!

I guess in the earlier days of BBmag Mr. Robert Young used to only allow articles with cited references, well I guess that didnt last. It seems that in the world of martial arts periodicals nothing with real substance stands up, only the folks with the most $$$ and articles that can make the most $$$ with the main readership (which seems to these days be targeted at teens very young adults).

It's true, there's definitely been a steady downward slide in BB, as the base of MA participation has becomes wider and shallower. Many of the people doing it in the 60s were dedicated fanatics who trained ferociously and competed in a way that brutal hardly does justice to. That has its own problems, but the magazine, if I recall correctly (this was long before my own MA days, but a number of my good friends were studying Shotokan
very seriously and had all these MA mags and book lying around) had a ton more substance and authority. These days, it's just a delivery vehicle for advertising.

take care,
--josh

And you also—cheers, Ex.

 

[Bret Hinds]

When it comes to the oldest forms I guess it will be a great unsloved question. But like the holy grail I will keep looking at the forms for there hidden turths. Thanks to all who put there replies. All The Best in the Arts. Oh by the way Black Belt Mag. is full of miss mis truths as well of a lot of truths, they do try to get it right.

 

[Cirdan]

This preponderance of evidence in favor of the thoroughly Chinese platform on which the ancient KMAs were built, and the Japanese source of the modern KMAs, seems to disturb some people, to the point where they simply deny the historically available evidence in favor of fantasy and legendary history. I've no idea why that is, but it's not unique to this particular question; there are also people who insist that the Inca pyramids, Easter Island statues and various ancient European monuments simply could not have gotten where they are without the intervention of extraterrestrials to guide construction operations from their interstellar space vessels, in spite of the fact that the ingenious but earthbound technological bases of these various architectural achievements is now well-known and well-attested. Well, I guess it's a harmless enough sort of fantasizing...

Careful Exile! You might give the mythmakers ideas and next thing we know there will be Celestial Dojangs popping up all over the place, claiming to teach ancient TKD techniques created by Aliens and Predators.

 

[exile]

Careful Exile! You might give the mythmakers ideas and next thing we know there will be Celestial Dojangs popping up all over the place, claiming to teach ancient TKD techniques created by Aliens and Predators.

Well, it's pretty clear that no known architectural principles or technologies are sufficient to explain the Palgwes, right? And we know that Aliens and Predators are among the most fearsome... um, combatants... in the universe, right? So, put 2 and 2 together and you get the obvious answer—47.239—i.e., that Aliens and Predators really did create TKD!

And here final absolute proof: the coup de grace typically delivered by an Alien is a tongue-strike, eh? And yet we do not see a single tongue strike delivered in any of the TKD hyungs! Isn't that exactly what we would expect if the Aliens who were involved in creating the TKD hyungs wanted to conceal all evidence that they were the ones behind those forms?? Well?

There, see? Ironclad logic, of about the same kind that people use in their two-page `historical' intros to their KMA books citing long discredited pseudoevidence in support of their claims for KMAs going back to the Old Stone Age on the Korean peninsula. I just finished another one such, a book on Tang Soo Do by Gm. Kang Uk Lee. A very odd book in a number of ways (though it's useful as a reference tool for TSD forms, very good illustrations for that purpose, though elsewhere the photos are pretty unhelpful). And there's currently that idiotic article in Black Belt I mentioned which does exactly the same thing... no, really, Cirdan, I think the Aliens/Predator story holds up at least as well as what these other guys are trying to sell us...

 

[Cirdan]

The ancient Korean Alien/Predator arts are of course the grandfather of numerous other arts like Ninjitsu too. Where do you think they got the secret of invisibility if not from the Predators? Ashida Kim has been trying to cover this up the for years but we know the truth!

If people want myths, why not take it all the way?

(Would give you rep Exile but I must spread more around first)

 

[exile]

The ancient Korean Alien/Predator arts are of course the grandfather of numerous other arts like Ninjitsu too. Where do you think they got the secret of invisibility if not from the Predators? Ashida Kim has been trying to cover this up the for years but we know the truth!

If people want myths, why not take it all the way?

FINALLY!!! I've been trying to find the missing connection amongst ninjas, Aliens, Predators, KMA hyungs and Ashida Kim for... well, a long time, and now it all makes sense!

Look at how much is explained by just a few simple assumptions—and isn't that the goal of serious, rational inquiry?

Now we just have to figure out how much we're going to sell those Celestial Dojang franchises for, make a few well-placed calls to the advert department of TKD Times (who will, if they follow standard practice, award us a cover story showing us in absurd combat-like stances with frightening martial expressions on our faces—we can flip for who gets to be uke and who gets to be tori) and Black Belt and start watching the gold roll in.... :EG:

 

[Cirdan]

Now we just have to figure out how much we're going to sell those Celestial Dojang franchises for, make a few well-placed calls to the advert department of TKD Times (who will, if they follow standard practice, award us a cover story showing us in absurd combat-like stances with frightening martial expressions on our faces—we can flip for who gets to be uke and who gets to be tori) and Black Belt and start watching the gold roll in.... :EG:

I think this is going to make even more cash than out Bezerk Bumblebee Seppuku-Do and Ballistic Crocodile Kurusawa-Te schemes. Sales of black leather alien combat suits (complete with tail and claws) and shiny predator armour should make us rich alone. Perhaps we finally can afford those solid gold thrones for the Dojo too.