No Concern For Life

[MJS]

This is an incident that happened a few days ago in the city just north of where I live. My family grew up in this city, my Grandfather was a cop there. It was bad at times...what area isn't...but it was nothing like it is today.

So, here we have a case of an elderly man, attempting to cross the street, and was hit by a car, that was chasing after another car. Zero regard for this man, and to think that people who witnessed this were acting as if nothing had happened.

I know in past discussions on whether or not you would act to save someone, you will always get mixed views...some who don't think twice and others who act, but still put safety first. In this case, unless you're medically qualified, giving any care may not be a good idea, but at least call the cops, check to see if the guy is breathing, keep him still, etc.

Hopefully the scumbags that did this will be caught and sent away.

Your thoughts?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I watched the tape.

It looked like someone was on the phone calling right away, and given the response of the police car that rolled up at the end of the tape a call went out pretty fast and the officer was nearby. I say this as it mentioned there were two calls to 911.

The two cars that caused the hit and run is a horrible situation and I do hope they are found and found guilty and sent to jail.

Those that watched, is a different story. Do they know if he is alive? Well check his pulse. Is he bleeding? Will I "catch" something and my kids and spouse will be at risk because I tried to "help" someone that might be dead. If I touch him and he moves and or I move him by accident, how are they to know that the injuries caused were not made worse by my actions? What if his family took me to court saying his neck injury is my fault because I have a house and assets they can get while they never catch the bad guys or the bad guys are two homeless drug addicts stealing cars with no value.

While I think it sucks horrible for the guy on the ground. And I would hope someone would help me as I would think I would help them, I do not think it right to say the whole community has lost is moral compass. Those present were a small group of the total population. And one of those in the street might have been telling people do not touch him as they had called 911. Not saying it was what they did, but there are too many unknowns of what was going on in that street for me to call it one way or the other.

My opinion.

 

[MA-Caver]

I saw this tape sometime last week and was appalled at the apparent lack of concern/assistance to the man. Numerous cars passed him on by and not a one stopped. Folks on the sidewalk... doesn't matter if one of them was on the phone calling 911, SOMEONE could've at least gone out into the street to make sure traffic would be safely re-routed around him, and be clear for the ambulance/EMS. SOMEONE with at least basic first aid training could've gone out to him to check his ABC's and BBC's. That I believe is required by law under the Good Samaritan act.
Damn sad, a damned shame. Wait until it's one of them or one of their own and see how they feel about it. Instant Karma where are you?

 

[MJS]

There are a few other articles floating around on this. This one really isn't as in-depth as the others, but perhaps I can shed some light. From other articles that I've read, HPD only received a few calls. Now, one would think that with all of the people in the area, the 911 center would've been flooded with them. I mean, I can attest to the fact that when there is a bad accident, we get a boatload of calls. As for the cruiser that arrived...that car was on its way to another non related call, and happend upon this accident.

In the other articles, I read that people in passing cars, and even someone on a motorcycle pulled up to look at the person and then drove away. Nice, real nice.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well I am shocked by all the motorists driving by. That is surprising. I am also shocked that nobody even really went over to the guy and asked how he was doing, checked his pulse etc. That is surprising as well. However, I do commend the people that made the 911 calls quickly as that is what go the professionals there soon. Kudos to those people.

 

[MJS]

From this link:

City officials, including Roberts, were backtracking from that opinion on Thursday, noting that in the hit-and-run four people called 911 within a minute of the accident, and that the victim, Angel Arce Torres, received medical attention shortly thereafter.

Well, there was a hell of alot more than 4 people on the street that day.


And this:

The hit-and-run took place about 5:45 p.m. in a working-class neighborhood. A patrol car heading east on Park Street came upon Angel Arce Torres as the officer was responding to another call.

 

[MJS]

Well I am shocked by all the motorists driving by. That is surprising. I am also shocked that nobody even really went over to the guy and asked how he was doing, checked his pulse etc. That is surprising as well. However, I do commend the people that made the 911 calls quickly as that is what go the professionals there soon. Kudos to those people.

I agree Brian! At least some people made the step at getting this guy some help. Last I heard, he's paralyzed from the neck down. Poor guy may never walk again all because of some clowns driving like fools. And it goes to show that they also had no regard for anyone else, considering this happened at a busy time of day, they could've caused some serious traffic accidents in addition to what they already did.

 

[Empty Hands]

I am not surprised at all. Basic human psychology. In uncertain situations, people always wait for someone else to make the first move, which psychologically frees them to act. Thus, no one makes the first move. People have been murdered in full view or full hearing of dozens of people, and no one has called. People have been lying bleeding in the street, and no one will stop to help - because no one else has first.

It isn't even a matter of "these terrible times." The Milgram Experiment. The Bystander Effect.

 

[MA-Caver]

I am not surprised at all. Basic human psychology. In uncertain situations, people always wait for someone else to make the first move, which psychologically frees them to act. Thus, no one makes the first move. People have been murdered in full view or full hearing of dozens of people, and no one has called. People have been lying bleeding in the street, and no one will stop to help - because no one else has first.

It isn't even a matter of "these terrible times." The Milgram Experiment. The Bystander Effect.

On the Milgram Experiment, it's been shown that during a crisis if one person stands up and starts giving orders the sheep will comply. In my First Responder training, I was told to first Secure the Scene then choose anyone within range to TELL them to call 911 and then start performing first-aid or whatever assistance is needed, if I need help, start volunteering people. Point at them and say YOU! Get over here and help me!
Done with the right tone of voice and with (respectful) authority that compels more than commands, you'd be surprised at what will break people out of their seeming stupor of watching the events as they unfold and getting in and getting their hands dirty.
A sheepdog amongst sheep.

However; people still can choose to follow their conscious and disobey or refuse to help. I've had that happen when I was among the first at an accident and thus politely (but firmly) asked them to help out in another way, re-directing traffic or getting folks out of the way or whatever else needs to be done... at least until EMS/LEO's arrived.

 

[Empty Hands]

On the Milgram Experiment, it's been shown that during a crisis if one person stands up and starts giving orders the sheep will comply.

Exactly, you are breaking that psychological stalemate by acting first. Don't be too hard on the "sheep" though, your training has given you a resolution to the uncertainty these situations can cause. Also, those "sheep" generally stop to help when they are alone, so it isn't simply a matter of being afraid to help.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

MA-Caver brings up good points as I was taught as well.

Seeing blood guts and all that can freeze a person my Father who was a Battalion chief with Fire rescue use to tell me the guys use to think of it as a drill or treating a dummy to help them keep their nerve. I was also taught to try to use some sort of protective barrier when dealing with someone.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I saw this tape sometime last week and was appalled at the apparent lack of concern/assistance to the man. Numerous cars passed him on by and not a one stopped. Folks on the sidewalk... doesn't matter if one of them was on the phone calling 911, SOMEONE could've at least gone out into the street to make sure traffic would be safely re-routed around him, and be clear for the ambulance/EMS. SOMEONE with at least basic first aid training could've gone out to him to check his ABC's and BBC's. That I believe is required by law under the Good Samaritan act.
Damn sad, a damned shame. Wait until it's one of them or one of their own and see how they feel about it. Instant Karma where are you?

The Good Samaratin laws provide exemption from civil liability when doing something in good faith to help others. They do not require one to act.

 

[shesulsa]

I know of no one personally who has been able to respond appropriately in their very first witnessed shocking emergency such as this one with a calm mind and active body.

Most people, the first time seeing something this shocking, freeze. Let's face it - there are a lot of people "out there" that have seen a lot of stuff, but your average John or Jane Citizen has not witness blood, guts, high-speed collisions or run-downs. It's a pants-wetter.

But I do have to wonder if there wasn't *one* person on that street that day that couldn't pick up the phone and dial 911.

 

[Phlegyas]

Me and my ex where on holiday a long time ago and we had a motorbike accident in the middle of a busy street. People just walked past, a few took some pictures. The first people to help us where from a hotel (they saw it from their balcony), and they took 10 min to get to us. Once they started to help us, other people joined in. I guess its just the sheep culture, people are just scared of acting on their own.

 

[MJS]

Well, whats really interesting is the fact that people will call in drunk drivers and people driving recklessly. During the course of a week at work, I take quite a few of those calls. So, someone is willing to call in a drunk driver, they're willing to follow this person through out the city, until we can get a cop to the area, but in a situation like this, only 4 calls were made? Hmm...whats wrong with that picture??

 

[Sukerkin]

As ever when something comes up on the board that I'm interested in or passionate about, I'm too tired to be cogent .

All I can say is that if it was not for someone taking the trouble to act when they saw an accident happen then, in all probability, I would not be alive today.

Prone and near unconscious, at midnight, dressed mostly in black, on an unlit country road, with a bike lying nearby with it's lights still on - what do you reckon the odds would be of a car swerving to miss the bike and going over me? Thankfully someone took a risk and pulled me out of the middle of the road, hit the kill-switch on the bike and dragged that out of the road, got me talking to make sure I was still alive and sent his wife off to town to get the ambulance (no mobile phones back then).

I know it's a litigous world now but I couldn't live with myself if I saw such a thing and did nothing!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, whats really interesting is the fact that people will call in drunk drivers and people driving recklessly. During the course of a week at work, I take quite a few of those calls. So, someone is willing to call in a drunk driver, they're willing to follow this person through out the city, until we can get a cop to the area, but in a situation like this, only 4 calls were made? Hmm...whats wrong with that picture??

Mike,

I would have been in the street, and trying to help and or direct traffic. I have done it before, and based upon past experience can give myself the credit that I would help.

But, most of the time, people just stand around as Georgia has stated. They are in a form of shock. They are waiting for someone to tell them what to do.

As to the car thing and drunk drivers, it is the same issue as road rage. People feel safe in their vehicle. They feel safe and like they can do anything and no one can touch them. I have had people flip me off that would never do any thing like that in person. I had one person reach for what I thought was a weapon in their car. It was a knife, but they never got to it. Why? I reached for him and ignored the window. He was so surprised that my hand was inside his safe zone. He could not understand what had happened. He thought he was just going to reach for the weapon and flash it and scare me for kicking him out.

I agree it sucks. I agree it sucks. I am glad the officer as stated from the other links was in the area and came upon him before the call reached him on his way to another call. I wonder if he was on his way to someone calling about the drivers. Or one of the drivers themselves calling the other person for road rage.

But to condemn the whole community is harsh. That is like saying those that live in the city that has highest murder rate, are murders. Or those who in shock stand there as someone gets grabbed and driven away, or shot or stabbed.

I know those I work with talk about their fights. These guys and gals are real tough. The last fight they ever had was in kindergarten when someone pushed them down. And that is those my age or older. (* A few exceptions - some of my friends - funny how we find each other *) Yet, with the younger crowd coming in most have never even been bullied or pushed down even once. I tell them this is great. I hope they never ever have to deal with violence. Their life will be great. I used to think that they all were the weird ones. They were all the ones who were wrong. They were the ones who were all going to be victims. The problem is that they are the norm for whee I work. They are the norm for where they live. They are the norm for where they hang out or go. I am the abnormal one. I really wonder, some days about myself and what I might be like if I had grown up and lived like them.

Mike, It sucks that so few responded. I have been first on the scene of accidents. I have been the cause of bodily harm and then proceeded to help them as the threat was over. Most of those were in shock, or just waiting for someone to tell them what to do. I could tell people to call for help, and no one would. I could point at a single person and tell them to call for help and they would.

 

[MJS]

Mike,

I would have been in the street, and trying to help and or direct traffic. I have done it before, and based upon past experience can give myself the credit that I would help.

But, most of the time, people just stand around as Georgia has stated. They are in a form of shock. They are waiting for someone to tell them what to do.

As to the car thing and drunk drivers, it is the same issue as road rage. People feel safe in their vehicle. They feel safe and like they can do anything and no one can touch them. I have had people flip me off that would never do any thing like that in person. I had one person reach for what I thought was a weapon in their car. It was a knife, but they never got to it. Why? I reached for him and ignored the window. He was so surprised that my hand was inside his safe zone. He could not understand what had happened. He thought he was just going to reach for the weapon and flash it and scare me for kicking him out.

I agree it sucks. I agree it sucks. I am glad the officer as stated from the other links was in the area and came upon him before the call reached him on his way to another call. I wonder if he was on his way to someone calling about the drivers. Or one of the drivers themselves calling the other person for road rage.

But to condemn the whole community is harsh. That is like saying those that live in the city that has highest murder rate, are murders. Or those who in shock stand there as someone gets grabbed and driven away, or shot or stabbed.

I know those I work with talk about their fights. These guys and gals are real tough. The last fight they ever had was in kindergarten when someone pushed them down. And that is those my age or older. (* A few exceptions - some of my friends - funny how we find each other *) Yet, with the younger crowd coming in most have never even been bullied or pushed down even once. I tell them this is great. I hope they never ever have to deal with violence. Their life will be great. I used to think that they all were the weird ones. They were all the ones who were wrong. They were the ones who were all going to be victims. The problem is that they are the norm for whee I work. They are the norm for where they live. They are the norm for where they hang out or go. I am the abnormal one. I really wonder, some days about myself and what I might be like if I had grown up and lived like them.

Mike, It sucks that so few responded. I have been first on the scene of accidents. I have been the cause of bodily harm and then proceeded to help them as the threat was over. Most of those were in shock, or just waiting for someone to tell them what to do. I could tell people to call for help, and no one would. I could point at a single person and tell them to call for help and they would.

Great post Rich!! Likewise, I don't think that I would be able to not feel guilty if I had kept on driving. I don't feel comfortable giving first aid, BUT...I'd have done something....making a call to the police even if others were already doing it, trying to keep the guy safe, ie: trying to direct cars away to prevent him from getting hit again, positioning my car, etc.

As for the cop that pulled up on this....in another article it said he was on his way to a non related call. Thank God he had to travel that route to get there.

I wonder if anyone got a plate or any info on the cars involved in this. I'd like nothing more than to see those guys caught.

As for the comments made by the chief and mayor...the city is in rough shape. There are shootings pretty much on a nightly basis, sometimes more than one. I saw on the news tonight that the State Police are going to be assisting during the Summer. This isn't the first time this has happened, and its amazing what a difference it makes.