ninjutsu & Marines

Fallen Ninja

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I was looking at the winjutsu website and I saw a link for the Marine Martial Arts. What is the connection, and if there isn't... why is the link on there?

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r erman

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I believe Jack Hoban was one of many advisors on the Marine Corps Martial Art curriculum. I do not now how much, if any, he contributed to the system, though.
 

Cryozombie

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r erman said:
I believe Jack Hoban was one of many advisors on the Marine Corps Martial Art curriculum. I do not now how much, if any, he contributed to the system, though.

Yes, I remember reading several articles in which Mr Hoban talks about his time working on that program with several others. Since Winjutsu is his site, it makes sense he has a link.
 

Dale Seago

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See http://www.marinecorpsmartialarts.com/

When you enter, you'll notice Prof. Robert Humphrey's Warrior Creed linked on the menu at the left. :) Humphrey was one of Jack's mentors, and he and Hatsumi sensei had met; his conflict-resolution work and values training led Soke to award him a posthumous honorary 10th dan (back when there were only 10 dan grades) when he passed away.

You'll also see Jack listed as one of the Subject Matter Experts who helped develolp the program if you go to "MACE Staff" and then to "Subject Matter Experts".

He holds a Black Belt Emeritus rank in the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), and he teaches regularly at the training courses for their instructors at Quantico -- physical instruction ("Technique enhancemants"), not just the values stuff.
 
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Fallen Ninja

Fallen Ninja

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Thanks Dale, you always clear things up.

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davidg553

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Technopunk said:
Yes, I remember reading several articles in which Mr Hoban talks about his time working on that program with several others. Since Winjutsu is his site, it makes sense he has a link.

For what its worth, "several others" includes Ken Shamrock
 

SP90

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I don't know if it's really in the spirit of the thread but I have seen a documentary in ninjutsu and the decided to compare a modern ninja to navy seals. It was in a big house chosen to be kind of similar to shoguns' palaces. There was one guy who was the target and some bodyguards inspecting the hallways and protecting him. The navy seals were 5 and they used strategy alot to kill everyone in less than 20 seconds. The ninja (Stephen Hayes) used a rather different approach. He disguised in a janitor who wanted to clean the camera lenses. He took 4 hours to finally "kill" the target by jumping on him when he was cleaning a camera near him.
 
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Fallen Ninja

Fallen Ninja

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That was a documentary done by Discovery Channel. Unfortunatley there was a lot of things left out and it made Ninjutsu look like some magical power thing. I guess the good thing is a lot of frauds out there didn't learn too much watching it. It did have good entertainment value if you wanted to pop out the popcorn and have a big soda with it.

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bobster_ice

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the marines learn ninjitu, well, not learn it but learn all of the ancient techniques of self defence, well, from my research, that is what ive gathered
 

Floating Egg

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That was a documentary done by Discovery Channel. Unfortunatley there was a lot of things left out and it made Ninjutsu look like some magical power thing. I guess the good thing is a lot of frauds out there didn't learn too much watching it. It did have good entertainment value if you wanted to pop out the popcorn and have a big soda with it.

I believe the documentary is called Unsolved History: Ninjas. Turnbull's association made me think twice about watching it, but I gave in to my curiosity. Unfortunately, like many Discovery Channel programs, entertainment trumps education. The only positive thing that I can think of is that the experiment wasn't sensationalized.
 

Deaf

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bobster_ice said:
the marines learn ninjitu, well, not learn it but learn all of the ancient techniques of self defence, well, from my research, that is what ive gathered

Ummm... if you read the previous post ( by Dale Seago ) he pretty much tells you a little bit about the Marine Corp program and lists a web site for you to get more information about the program.

From the FAQ listed on the site, the Marine Corp Martial Program is really using multiple martial arts within their program, not just ninjutsu.

Now on the subject of that Discovery Channel show... I thought it was pretty cool seeing how the SEAL team just went in there and blitz'd them to take out the subject. I understand the tactics that SKH did however at the end, he was "killed" so even thought he did get his objective, he, himself was taken out as well.

Michael
 

Dale Seago

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As most will be aware, Hatsumi sensei has placed huge emphasis on weapons-based armored combat in the Bujinkan over the last couple of years or so. That makes this article by Lieutenant Colonel George Bristol, head of the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), particularly interesting:

LET'S ROLL???
The Realities of Armored and Weapons Grappling

Lieutenant Colonel G. H. Bristol, USMC


I still speak to a lot of young Marines about the MCMAP. I still see them get excited about their first belt; the first time they spar; and the first time they do a technique and it works. Like them, I remember a lot of firsts, and, most of all, my first combative love: JUDO. I have had a longstanding affair with Judo - I just passed 38 years of training. I still have my competition medals; old judogi; bad knees; and great memories. I would not change a thing.
However, realities of life have brought to light the weakness of sport grappling. When I was 14, I was stabbed "shooting in" to take another guy down in Providence, Rhode Island. Cut badly, I backed up, picked up a piece of wood, and proceeded to beat the guy to a pulp. Why didn't I pick up the board first? Later, as a Marine, I saw combat and realized that - with all the gear that we need to survive on a battlefield - grappling would never be the action of choice. Had I wasted all those years?
The answer is no, but the MCMAP - and in particular its Instructor population - must "come to grips" (to use a Judo term) with its grappling emphasis and method of instruction. More than any other excess, Marines want to learn how to "roll." It is a fact that the oldest form of male bonding is WRESTLING. As young men, sooner of later we begin to grapple with each other; it is sort of a "king of the hill" experience. Male animals - during the competition for mating - engage in rough grappling prior to choosing up a mate. These tendencies - and the tremendous explosion of grappling and mixed martial arts in mainstream media - have brought grappling to a new level of interest.
The MCMAP - to be viable as a Corps culture entity long-term - must first and foremost maintain its applicability on today's - and tomorrow's - battlefield. Grappling - while first among equals as a sport, a conditioning exponent, and a bonding agent - can become an end in itself and more importantly, a bad habit in real close-in fighting. We are not training Marines to be UFC participants; we are training them for functional efficiency and dominance on a battlefield.
The following essay deals with the realities of grappling training, transmission, and application.
THE ENVIRONMENT
Sport grappling is conducted in a controlled environment. While that environment is rough, hard, and demanding, it is constructed to even up the participants. There are weight classes, rules of what can and cannot be executed, time limits, and safety apparatus (mats, referees, etc) to ensure the conduct of a match is executed within established parameters. I have lost count of the different mixed martial arts (UFC/Shooto/Pancrase et al) that are all grappling organizations.
At the other end of the spectrum is a battlefield: an uncontrolled environment. If two Marines were somehow unarmed and placed in a battlefield situation against one opponent, they could charge him - together; fish hook him and eye gouge him; pick him up and smash him head first on the pavement; and them stomp him to death with their boots. The "contest" would be completely fair.
THE EXPONENTS
I wrote a speech once entitled "All Life's Lessons are Learned in a Wrestling Room." It remains one of the toughest environments on earth. Well conditioned, motivated, and dedicated men push, pull, run, lift, and fall - and then cut weight. It provides an iron will and the ability to bear pain and accept victory and defeat on a minute-by-minute basis. Many of them are in a closed social nexus; it remains a cloistered world. One of my closest friends - legendary Iowa wrestler Joel Sharratt - told me once that "wrestling - at any level - is a total commitment where everything comes second. You eat and breathe it..." When I am interviewing Marines for Recon, if they tell me they have wrestled, I will always give them a shot because of this intensity.
Marines - and I am speaking about the Corps at large - are dedicated individuals as well. However, they rarely get the time to practice their PRIMARY discipline: Rifleman. To even suggest that they would have the time to conduct the arduous specificity that grapplers must endure is simply ridiculous. If anything, the combative training piece must be tailored to give them the most application in the least amount of time.
THE "X" FACTOR
Additionally, the "X" factor is the fact that Marines will rarely - if ever - find an unarmed situation on a battlefield in which sport-style grappling techniques will work without modification. There will be a weapon, a piece of terrain, or a conditioning dilemma as well to blur the purity of the single leg takedown, the counter to the guard, or one of the many situational responses (counter/submission, etc.) found in numerous grappling systems today.
Experienced grapplers can probably weather the storm more readily. An elite level wrestler or grappler can "subdue" unarmed opponents because of high-level repetition. Likewise, their major strength - aggression and lack of fear of contact - makes them good candidates for the transition to weapons-based systems. But to think that teaching a Marine hours of grappling - on a mat with wrestling shoes - will make him effective on a battlefield by hitting the ground is a bad habit that will cost lives.
ELIMINATE THE THREAT-PROTECT THE FORCE-ACCOMPLISH THE MISSION
I believe strongly that the answer lies in Weapons-based grappling. In the past, MCMAP training has included some back-to-back, "go for the knife" engagements that place some reality in close-in fighting. The scenario always plays out the same: the Marine who gets the knife goes wild trying to cut and then Marine who doesn't attempts to keep the knife away. The knife-wielder is super-aggressive and the unarmed opponent is super-defensive. It is a great reality trainer.
I would offer to the MCMAP Instructor community to take it further, using these points as a guideline:
1) Begin all grappling at standing from a distance of 20 or more feet apart
2) Use a combination of weapons (rifle/knife/stick) in dissimilar fashion (IE, one Marine armed with a rifle, one unarmed; one Marine with a knife, one with a stick, etc.)
3) Use full combat gear (to include helmet)
4) Do not train this grappling on a mat - always train it outdoors
5) Conduct the engagement after a brief (but intense) physical event (an Obstacle Course run is perfect)
I have conducted this training at 3d Reconnaissance Battalion on several occasions. I have concluded the following from a GRAPPLING perspective:
1) Going to close-in fighting armed with a weapon teaches the Marine distancing, timing, and targeting to end an engagement before it comes to "Let's wrestle"
2) There is much more of a tendency (after going to the ground once or twice) to use techniques such as the leg sweep (or at the very least off-balancing techniques) to get the opponent to fall - hard - and not fall yourself. The Marines realize that if they "tie up" with weapons that they must execute immediately and not spend time "gripping" with each other
3) Fatigue will allow the Marine to be much more eager to end an engagement quickly, thus saving him from harm (of any level)
4) I have allowed multiple Marines to go against a single opponent. I have NEVER seen a ground fight from one of these situations other than the opponent being beaten to his knees
5) Marines understand better the brutal nature of this type of fighting and use their weapons to end an engagement from proper engagement distance
NO MORE GRAPPLING???
I approach my fourth decade as a grappler with that same love for the sport I had as a boy. I still like to get on a mat and go through some takedown drills or mat work (I even like to hit the sauna to "shed a few" on occasion!). I believe that grappling can be a tremendous conditioner; a motivator; and a bonding experience for Marines. I propose the following for "Grappling CONDITIONING for Marines":
1) MAIs/MAITs should view/participate in a wrestling practice run by a high school/college coach (Joel Sharratt is my ideal)
2) Emphasize MOVEMENT, MOBILITY, and BASIC TIE-UP, TAKEDOWN, and GROUND CONTROL - nothing fancy.
3) Stress REPETITION and CHANGING PARTNERS
4) Limit the "Choke Hold Number 74" thing for small groups. Most of the non-grapplers will never do these fancy techniques enough to ever make them work anyway.
5) Place some calisthenics, tumbling, and plyometric movement into the mix.
6) Use college-wrestling videos to motivate Marines to train with enthusiasm. One of the greatest is DAN GABLE - COMPETITOR SUPREME.
7) Use the sauna - a wrestling staple - for a post workout-bonding agent. Due it safely!
8) Don't do it too often. Keep Marines motivated to do it, but stress the realities of weapons. 90% of the "grappling program" should be weapons-based grappling.
I have never heard of a battle being won with a "high crotch" or a submission hold. A rifle and bayonet has carried the day for the Corps "in every clime and place." The reality is that Marines will do what they think is fun before they will do what is hard. Grappling - with all its effort - fun. Killing is not. The MCMAP must remain functional, not strive to be popular nor allow itself to wander from its basic endeavor: AN INTEGRATED FIGHTING SYSTEM FOR ALL MARINES[FONT=&quot].
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The essay above can be found online at https://www.tbs.usmc.mil/Pages/MA/media/docs/docs/LET'S%20ROLL.htm
 

Connovar

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Position before submission is a cardinal rule whether in pure grappling or mixed martial arts or combat. In a combat or self defense situation it would be foolish to intentionally go the ground (although putting the opponent on the ground is not a bad idea). Even if on the ground, you would move to position and finish the opponent. In the street that would be headbutts knees etc elbows etc if on the ground after you have position. If a military situation add to the above using your knife handgun whatever. But you have to have position first. From it you have the balance to strike or use weapons very effectively.

Obviously the best best thing for combat is simply to shoot them. However when combat goes hand to hand it wont look like a striking or kicking match. The combatants quickly close with each other and then grappling along with the elbows and knees etc come into play. Again here the issue is being able to maintain a good position (standing) from which to deliver these strikes.

You dont get points for submission or position in combat. You just get to see another sunrise.
 

Shaolin Bushido

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Just a quick aside ... I don't know if y'all are aware of it or not but Ken Shamrock actually attended boot camp and only left without completing it due to them deciding to disqualify him due to an existing neck injury he'd incurred in his HS wrestling career.

Recruiters ... they got a tough job. They'd told him it wasn't a problem but I guess the Navy Doc's had other thoughts.
 

Connovar

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His article describes what he thinks works best in the uncontrolled environment.of combat. According to him the best candidates are the people who have or are presently doing full speed resistant grappling. (Notice he did not menition do kata or simply drilling technique over and over as good background for real combat).

He is also strongly focus on the conditioning element. To be a good warrior you need to be in shape. Thats been discussed before. Obviously the marines do more exercise than just walking.

He does seem to contradict himself. He obviously highly values the attribute development that grappling provides and yet doesnt understand that the grappling in the military program provides just that. Perhaps he is to focused on the particular techniques that are taught for this grappling training. Other people I have talked to regarding that program describe the grappling as providing attributes of strength, balance, aggressivness etc. which he also values. The other things needed such as strikes use of weapons for blunt force are convered under other activities and are easily incorporated into with grappling or close range scenarios So this article supports the use of full resistance training for realistic preparation of contemporary warriors.

Clearly the best thing is to use a weapon, but when it goes hand to hand you need everything.
 

green meanie

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Connovar said:
His article describes what he thinks works best in the uncontrolled environment.of combat. According to him the best candidates are the people who have or are presently doing full speed resistant grappling. (Notice he did not menition do kata or simply drilling technique over and over as good background for real combat).

He is also strongly focus on the conditioning element. To be a good warrior you need to be in shape. Thats been discussed before. Obviously the marines do more exercise than just walking.

He does seem to contradict himself. He obviously highly values the attribute development that grappling provides and yet doesnt understand that the grappling in the military program provides just that. Perhaps he is to focused on the particular techniques that are taught for this grappling training. Other people I have talked to regarding that program describe the grappling as providing attributes of strength, balance, aggressivness etc. which he also values. The other things needed such as strikes use of weapons for blunt force are convered under other activities and are easily incorporated into with grappling or close range scenarios So this article supports the use of full resistance training for realistic preparation of contemporary warriors.

Clearly the best thing is to use a weapon, but when it goes hand to hand you need everything.

He does seem to contradict himself but I think I understand what he's trying to say here. He has a deep respect for wrestling and what he feels it instills into the individual. In his opinion, ex-wrestlers make excellent warriors, but the way to make warriors isn't to try to turn them into wrestlers. Does that make any sense?
 
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