New Implications on Ninjitsu(ism)

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sojobow

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Food to thought. You may have to read between the lines a little, however, I find interesting the references to migration, anthropological, linquistic, and genetic studies, the house of Paekchae, racism, lineage, it's effect on budo etc. It hasn't stopped as of yet. Have to watch that mitochondral dna stuff. Makes it necessary to re-write or bujitsu history a tad.

see thread on "fresh air.", Search for a discussion on Eta and the people Hinin or Hinan. We may be getting closer to who the real people of the Shinobi are. IMOHO, they're still here. The migrations have not ceased.


http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

Japanese Culture


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The history of Japan is still poorly understood. Many Japanese still believe in the mythological origins of their people and island, and resist current anthropological, linguistic, and genetic studies which seem to demonstrating successive migrations from the Korean peninsula, taking place over two millennium. Some current research, for instance, suggests that the royal house of Paekchae, a Korean nation that succumbed during civil strife around 600 a.d., may have migrated to Japan, becoming the Japanese ruling family. DNA testing and linguistics seems to confirm a relationship. Similarly, little research is devoted to the displacement by these migrations of the Caucasian-appearing race that was indigenous to Japan, the Ainu, which still exists in northern Japan.

For the past 1500 years, Japan has experienced an extraordinary cultural development, promoted on the one hand by its island isolation, and on the other hand by the necessity of being an island nation with very limited natural resources.

Modern Japan has evolved from a distinctly feudal nation to a modern society in an extraordinarily short period of time. Many ancient traditions are, therefore, within modern memory and interpretation.

Japan's political role in the modern world has been controversial, at best, and represents the cultural extremes of the 20th century, from rampant, agressive militarism to a pacificism that has sometimes been criticized as indifferent.

The study of Japanese Budo, which is popular in the West, often fails to acknowledge the role of Budo in the modern Japanese tragedy leading to World War II, and the distorting and destructive effect that its philosophies can have on a culture and a people as a whole.

The uniqueness of Japanese language, culture, cuisine, religion, and manner of living has been of great interest over the past century, and the study of the various Japanese Budo and Bujitsu styles have permitted Westerners the excitement of actually participating in a direct way, in the study of Japanese culture, while permitting Japanese to engage in a meaningful active study of their own historical traditions and cultural attributes.
 

althaur

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This has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It has to do with the population of an island, and how cultural beliefs can cause problems.

Using this migration as something to do with Ninjutsu, would be like saying that Native Americans where ninja also, since they came from upper eastern Asia, and the Chinese had spread Ninjutsu into what would be modern day Mongolia and the former USSR. :)

How's that for a runon sentence?
 

Kreth

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althaur said:
Using this migration as something to do with Ninjutsu, would be like saying that Native Americans where ninja also, since they came from upper eastern Asia, and the Chinese had spread Ninjutsu into what would be modern day Mongolia and the former USSR. :)
I have it on good authority that the ancestors of the Native Americans used Yoko Aruki to cross the Bering Strait. :D
Note for those playing along at home: note the "new" ninja term above. I'm now taking bets for a pool on how long it take for snowjob to write a post on how it's taught in Dupe Ryu.

Jeff
 
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BoneBreaker

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Interesting concept Sojobow. I would agree it is possible but not likely to have any such effect in reality. However, unlike some people I appreciate your efforts to see beyond what is written in your quest for the truth.
 

althaur

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Okay in all fairness, I appreciate the effort you put into this also. What does the above have to do with Ninjutsu though??? Nothing. It is talking about the natural migration of peoples, the isolation and evolution of an island culture. It has nothing to do with the development of a Japanese art. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art. It has elements of skills from different areas, that doens't change where the art was developed. That would be like saying Americans, Brits, French, Spanish all speak the same language because it all came from Latin. Pretty asinine idea. While English originated with Latin(Romance language) it is not a Roman creation, is it?
 

Dale Seago

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althaur said:
That would be like saying Americans, Brits, French, Spanish all speak the same language because it all came from Latin. Pretty asinine idea. While English originated with Latin(Romance language) it is not a Roman creation, is it?

I agree with your argument, but English is not a Romance language. It is a Teutonic language akin to the German and Scandinavian languages, though it did become heavily Latinized later due largely to Norman/French influence. Here is an example of what English (or, then, Englisc) looked like before all that, from the poem Beowulf:

Hwæt! We Gar-dena in gear-dagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Forgeaf þa Beowulfe brand Healfdenes
segen gyldenne sigores to leane;
hroden hildecumbor, helm ond byrnan,
mære maðþumsweord manige gesawon
beforan beorn beran.
 

althaur

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Oops! I stand corrected on that. :) Guess I should have been paying a little more attention to what I was saying.
 
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Genin Andrew

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Your all idiots!!! mr sojobow never intended to write anything about ninjutsu! its "NINJISUISM" c'mon people lets try and get it right!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Thankyou althuar you have stated what i have been trying to get across to mr sojobow for quite some time.He seems to have this belief that anyone who migrates from one country to another are all ninja,shinobi,iga no bushi or ninjitsuists or whatever...This as we know is quite incorrect. But hey i may be the one who is wrong!:idunno:
 
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sojobow

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althaur said:
This has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It has to do with the population of an island, and how cultural beliefs can cause problems.
EXACTLY
 
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sojobow

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Kreth said:
I have it on good authority that the ancestors of the Native Americans used Yoko Aruki to cross the Bering Strait. :D
Note for those playing along at home: note the "new" ninja term above. I'm now taking bets for a pool on how long it take for snowjob to write a post on how it's taught in Dupe Ryu. Jeff
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. (And this from a high-ranking Bujinkan?)
 
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sojobow

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BoneBreaker said:
Interesting concept Sojobow. I would agree it is possible but not likely to have any such effect in reality. However, unlike some people I appreciate your efforts to see beyond what is written in your quest for the truth.
Good to see you. Still working on that JKD/Interception post. Check back.
 
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sojobow

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althaur said:
Okay in all fairness, I appreciate the effort you put into this also. What does the above have to do with Ninjutsu though??? Nothing. It is talking about the natural migration of peoples, the isolation and evolution of an island culture. It has nothing to do with the development of a Japanese art. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art.
I don't believe that Ninjitsu is a Japanese Art. I believe it's essence developed in China around 350 b.c. during the Chinese Warring States Period and then, through migration, spread throughout the Asian continent, into the Korean state and into Japan. It's essence spread outward.

It has elements of skills from different areas, that doens't change where the art was developed.
It is still "developing." It continues to evolve. Today, it (Ninjitsu) contains elements of every martial art and every weapon known to man as of TODAY. If, as you say, it has elements of skills from different areas, wouldn't this statement conflict with your "its a Japanese Art?"

That would be like saying Americans, Brits, French, Spanish all speak the same language because it all came from Latin. Pretty asinine idea. While English originated with Latin(Romance language) it is not a Roman creation, is it?
Do we (Americans) not have words in our language originating from Brits (Kiosk), French (Boulevard), Spanish (Taco Bell). Some say that all Japanese Martial Arts originated in China except Sumo Wrestling. Maybe not so asinine is it? But, not trying to change your mind on anything. Just my idea of plausible thought. Who said that Ninjitsu is a Japanese Art?

IMO
 
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sojobow

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Genin Andrew said:
Your all idiots!!! mr sojobow never intended to write anything about ninjutsu! its "NINJISUISM" c'mon people lets try and get it right!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
Wow! Where the heck did that come from? Hope you're well buddy.

Thankyou althuar you have stated what i have been trying to get across to mr sojobow for quite some time.He seems to have this belief that anyone who migrates from one country to another are all ninja,shinobi,iga no bushi or ninjitsuists or whatever...This as we know is quite incorrect. But hey i may be the one who is wrong!:idunno:
You're only wrong in that you improperly define my belief(s). I believe that Ninjitsu (or Ninjitsuism) migrated outward (from eastern China) and into other countries and existed independ of other countries during the same period of time. Everyone that migrated during this period were not all martial artist so, your statement cannot be even close to a truth. I am talking about the martial science, not the people. This might get you real angry and confused, but Ninjitsu can exist (due to its evolution) without human beings (but that's another whole new discussion for a different forum mode so lets not go there).
 

althaur

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sojobow said:
I believe that Ninjitsu (or Ninjitsuism) migrated outward (from eastern China) and into other countries and existed independ of other countries during the same period of time.
That, right there, says it all. If I believe in trolls, it doens't make them true.
 

Dale Seago

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althaur said:
That, right there, says it all. If I believe in trolls, it doens't make them true.

Ah, but they can be empirically observed to exist in the virtual reality of the internet, whether one believes in them or not. :rolleyes:
 
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Genin Andrew

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"but that's another whole new discussion for a different forum mode so lets not go there" EXACTLY.

Sojobow if thats what you believe then maybe you should kindly shift over to the "chinese forum" and ask them what they know about the "essence" (which could mean anything) of ninjutsu and how many historians have written of chinese Ninja. I have told you my position once but i will tell you again for the sake of old fashioned education.

Many Chinese men, women and children did migrate to Japan to escape the wars and destruction and the horrific going ons in China, Some of these did find themselves in the Iga/Koga regions and did train in ninjutsu and adopted ninpo as their way. Their was a heavy chinese influence with ninjutsu but it was born,bread and grown in the great land that is Japan. Ninjutsu wasnt created before the chinese migrated,rather the opposite.

I think your point of view exists because you feel that "the mind" or the mind of the chinese to be more specific is what created Ninjutsu,and obviously they had their mind before entering Japan.Therefore you believe that Ninjustu in its "essence" was growing before the Japanese and Chinese mingled together,had a few bottles of sake and whipped up ninjutsu!

But...The Ninja existed before many chinese made it to Japan, I think your view is well thought out but poorly researched.I think its great you read so far into the topic and come up with these theories but its important to remember that the Ninja were predominantly Japanese. And they were because Japanese men and women developed Ninpo and trained in ninjutsu over many years in the mud,rain and sun of Japan,under Japanese trees,on Japanese grasses,through Japanese mountains and operated throughout JAPAN!

much respect
-andrew
 
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sojobow

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Finally. Its about time. See, now we can talk and share some questions that have bothered me for quite some time. Good post.

Genin Andrew said:
"but that's another whole new discussion for a different forum mode so lets not go there" EXACTLY.
Actually, the portion of this quote had to do with my position that Ninjitsu would still exist with or without human beings.

Sojobow if thats what you believe then maybe you should kindly shift over to the "chinese forum" and ask them what they know about the "essence" (which could mean anything) of ninjutsu and how many historians have written of chinese Ninja. I have told you my position once but i will tell you again for the sake of old fashioned education.
I did already. And will continue my pursuit of their input and knowledge on this subject. Very interesting so far.

Many Chinese men, women and children did migrate to Japan to escape the wars and destruction and the horrific going ons in China, Some of these did find themselves in the Iga/Koga regions and did train in ninjutsu and adopted ninpo as their way. Their was a heavy chinese influence with ninjutsu but it was born,bread and grown in the great land that is Japan.
Interesting concept and helps me a lot. Are you saying that the Yamabushi were teaching their martial concepts to warriors already known as Ninja or practitioners of Ninjutsu? Basically, are you saying Ninjutsu had already been developed in Japan before the yamabushi migrated to Japan? Please elaborate a little.

Ninjutsu wasnt created before the chinese migrated,rather the opposite.
Was this a typo?

I think your point of view exists because you feel that "the mind" or the mind of the chinese to be more specific is what created Ninjutsu,and obviously they had their mind before entering Japan.Therefore you believe that Ninjustu in its "essence" was growing before the Japanese and Chinese mingled together,had a few bottles of sake and whipped up ninjutsu!
Close, but what I believe I said was that the Chinese developed the concept, philosophy and purpose of what is now called Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. The Chinese did not use the term "Ninjutsu" to define the behavior/science but used the word Kan and a few others. Japan just called the same philosophy "Ninjutsu" after the martial philosophy was actually accepted and then used in Japan. But if you are correct and the philosophy of Ninjutsu already existed before the migration from China, it would actually open a lot more questions than answers.

But...The Ninja existed before many chinese made it to Japan, I think your view is well thought out but poorly researched. much respect
-andrew
So, you're saying that Ninjutsu and Ninpo had already been developed and used in Japan before the period of the Yamabushi, En-no-Goyoja/Shugendo? You're saying Ninjutsu existed in Japan alone (and not in any other country) before 622 A.D. or even before 300 B.C.?
Can you give me a hint as to when (what year(s)) you believe Ninjutsu began in Japan and was there a reason for the creation of Ninjutsu.
 
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sojobow

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Genin Andrew said:
But...The Ninja existed before many chinese made it to Japan, I think your view is well thought out but poorly researched.Imuch respect
-andrew
Other Poor Research

"Among the ancient ninjutsu documents that I inherited from my teacher are several scrolls that tell of Chinese ex-patriots who fled their native land to seek sanctuary in the islands of Japan. Chinese warriors, scholars, and monks alike made the journey to find new lives in the wilderness of Ise and Kii south of the capitals in Nara and then Kyoto. Taoist sages like Gamon, Garyu, Kain, and Unryu, and generals from T’ang China such as Cho Gyokko, Ikai, and Cho Busho brought with them the knowledge that had accumulated over the centuries in their native land. Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices, and a generally wide scope of perspective that blended the wisdom of China with that of India, Tibet, Eastern Europe, and south-east Asia were their gifts to their newly-found followers in Japan. Remote and far flung from the Emperor’s court in the capital, the cultural ancestors of the ninja lived their lives as naturalists and mystics, while the main-stream of society became increasingly structured, ranked, stylised, and eventually tightly controlled.

As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."


History of Ninjutsu
The Historical Ninja
By Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi

Is he wrong also?
 
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Genin Andrew

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No Hatsumi Sensei is not wrong and i would never call him wrong or correct him,who am i to say that such a man is wrong.

I like the way you highlighted certain points trying to make connections with what you say and what Hatsumi says...quite well done.

What Hatsumi says, is obviously correct. However he never once stated that Ninjutsu originated in China. He stated that Chinese men and women had great influence on the development of Ninjutsu and were obviously greatly involved.

"Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices" These are all qualities and skills that the Chinese had to offer,but just because they harboured them in their minds doesnt make them Ninja, The Ninja clans were an affiliation of Chinese and Japanese,a mix,that came to be in JAPAN.

Its good that you dig up extracts like that but i just think Sojobow that you read to deep into somethings and put too much of a spin on simple quotes. I dont believe that Hatsumi's scrolls state that the Ninja families were born in China and migrated to Japan where they spread their knowledge and skills nor do i think that is the way Hatsumi wants us to read that passage.

Your theories and opinions and so forth are all well and good Sojobow but when you state it as historical fact (not referring to Hatsumi's book) or even if you dont state it,it sometimes comes across that way and can easily 'urk' people and distress them. Not because they are easily annoyed but because they are tired of reading rambling and are hear to learn proper history.

I will commend you on your efforts to promote civil discussion,and keep this from getting personal and rather a trade of ideas,good job on that.

much respect
-andrew
 
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sojobow

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Genin Andrew said:
I dont believe that Hatsumi's scrolls state that the Ninja families were born in China and migrated to Japan where they spread their knowledge and skills nor do i think that is the way Hatsumi wants us to read that passage.
Neither did I. Don't know where the "ninja families were born in China..." came from either.

it sometimes comes across that way and can easily 'urk' people and distress them. Not because they are easily annoyed but because they are tired of reading rambling and are hear to learn proper history.
This may be what you HOPE, but, since HUNDREDS of people are reading these post, don't think they'd keep reading if this is of no interest or considered rambling as you state. Least I hope not. Maybe it's because most posters just can't write a post without the name "sojobow" or "snowjob" somewhere within. I'm not as important as the subjects - I hope.

Interested in your explanation of what this "gifts to their newly-found followers" is. I read and interpret the "gift" as what constitutes the Ninja. I use the term "what constitutes the Ninja" because I'm interested to know the difference between "Ninja" and "Ninjutsu." Reading recently that to call a Samurai a "Ninja" would cause you to lose your head as the Samurai considered it an insult to be called "Ninja." But, the Samurai, supposedly, practiced Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Thus, it seems that one could practice "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" without being a "Ninja." More of my "rambling" don't you think. But, try and figure that one out. I am.

I will commend you on your efforts to promote civil discussion,and keep this from getting personal and rather a trade of ideas,good job on that. much respect-andrew
Thanx
 
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