MT LEO's, your opinion on Glocks w/ 9# triggers, DA/SA and DA only.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

In the county I live, they make the local cops carry a .45 caliber Glock with the 9# New York trigger as oposed to the stock Glock trigger of 5.5#s or the option of the 3.5#.

I know a few officers and 1 does not care (but knows near nothing about guns that the acadamy did not teach him), 2 hate it and feel they are being treated like a child and are being giving a handicap (This is how I would feel) and a female officer hates it because it's really effects her shooting on the range.

She hopes to God she never has to use it. Not just because she has a big heart and does not want to kill anyone but also because she fears she wont shoot well in combat and has no faith in the rare but potential situation where a scumbag has a gun or knife to someone's throat and she has to put on in the head.

Some departments make their officers carry Double Action Only semi automatics as oppssed to DA/SA.

A friend who is a Fed likes DAO because he feels you should have only one trigger pull. I dont, I was traind that I can pull the hammer back if need be for the first shot (I like options) or I use a push method for a snap shot and it takes out the pressure.

My problem with hard trigger or long trigger pulls is they negate one of the best advantages of a semi auto over a DA revolver, the abilty to shoot accurate and fast double taps.

So I'd like to hear from the LEO's here.

Thank you.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Much like real life, when I would like a Cop they are either 45 minutes late or not around at all. (With the exception of they did come fairly quick to help me find a little boy's parent's 3 weeks ago.)

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Not an LEO, but like to think I know my way around guns, so:

In the county I live, they make the local cops carry a .45 caliber Glock with the 9# New York trigger as oposed to the stock Glock trigger of 5.5#s or the option of the 3.5#.

I know a few officers and 1 does not care (but knows near nothing about guns that the acadamy did not teach him), 2 hate it and feel they are being treated like a child and are being giving a handicap (This is how I would feel) and a female officer hates it because it's really effects her shooting on the range.

She hopes to God she never has to use it. Not just because she has a big heart and does not want to kill anyone but also because she fears she wont shoot well in combat and has no faith in the rare but potential situation where a scumbag has a gun or knife to someone's throat and she has to put on in the head.

Some departments make their officers carry Double Action Only semi automatics as oppssed to DA/SA.

A friend who is a Fed likes DAO because he feels you should have only one trigger pull. I dont, I was traind that I can pull the hammer back if need be for the first shot (I like options) or I use a push method for a snap shot and it takes out the pressure.

My problem with hard trigger or long trigger pulls is they negate one of the best advantages of a semi auto over a DA revolver, the abilty to shoot accurate and fast double taps.

So I'd like to hear from the LEO's here.

Thank you.

Massad Ayoob discusses the decline of single-action acceptability both in his 2006 Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery and an article in the HANDGUNS 2010 ANNUAL, Court issues and armed citizen self-defense. He stated within this article that using a "hair trigger" is not recommended. He goes on writing how two police officers who were involved in fatal shootings using a S&W .38 special. He goes on to explain each of their situation, one being Crown v. Alan Gosset where the gun became unintentionally cocked and accidentally discharged in a high stress moment which killed the escaping prisoner who the officer was holding at gunpoint. He was convicted of manslaughter in the first trial and acquitted in the second trial. The other was Florida v. Luis Alvarez. The court concocted a "cocked-gun accident" it took eight weeks to have the officer acquitted. As a civilian the odds won't be in my favor as they would were I an LEO. My SIG and all my snubbies, and ANY sidearm I ever again buy for personal carry will always be DAO.

Why?

David Kenik goes into the effect of Body Alarm Reaction and adrenaline stress and it's deleterious effect on fine motor skill in his article Are Single-Action Triggers Street Safe? in the April/May 2006 issue of Handguns Magazine:

http://www.armedresponsetraining.com/articles/1911streetsafe.pdf

We simply know more than we used to about the physiological reaction to adrenaline and it's effect on motor skill than we used to back in the days of the 1911. For good or ill, it's now realistically a double action only world. "Keep the finger off the trigger" is not the simple answer that it seems if you can't feel your finger.

That's why I feel the 8 pound NY1 trigger is a good addition to any Glock intended to be carried for duty or defense.

 

[Carol]

Gotta side with my instructor, Mr. Moynihan here.

I'm in the DAO only camp.

That being said, I loathe the New York trigger (alone).

The NY-1 trigger with the 3.5# ghost connector, however, is something I'd seriously consider. Smoother action, quicker reset, for a pull that is not much harder than the 5.5# stock.

 

[Disco]

We used to carry 38 S&W and there was a usefulness in being able to cock the hammer when confronting a bad guy. It usually acted as "I mean business" and the bad guy would 99% of the time, think twice before doing something stupid and surrender. The down side was you now had almost a hair trigger and if you weren't careful in releasing the hammer, you had a discharge. Lost track of how many times that happened, but nobody got hurt, just looked foolish. With the first switch to 9mm (Beretta's) everybody had a problem adjusting because they had such a long trigger pull. Under stress, that long pull created it's own problems with folks pulling too hard and pulling the shot off line. If you don't hit what your aiming at, then innocent folks get hurt. Regardless of what one carries, they must become very familiar with that weapon and that means practice, which the vast majority of officers DON"T DO! We even had an old timer that we couldn't even get the gun out of his holster, it was rusted into the locking bar in the holster. There are ways to make fit adjustments to any gun and that should be paramount to the individual that carries it for their protection or that of others. It's nothing more than a tool, but it's the most dangerous tool out there in the wrong hands.

 

[KenpoTex]

Not a LEO, but I personally feel that the "heavy triggers" are a hardware solution to a software problem...in other words, trying to use a mechanical device to make up for a deficiency in training.
If your finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be, I don't thing there is any guarantee that a heavier trigger will prevent you from discharging the weapon if you convulsively tighten your grip as part of a "startle-response."

I'm doing some looking, cause I know I've seen the numbers somewhere, but I seem to recall that the pressure exerted under the startle-response is, on average, significantly more than what is required to pull any trigger out there.

I'm not arguing for a 1# bull's-eye match trigger. However, I also don't think that adding 4 or 5 lbs. to the stock pull (i.e. the "NY" return springs in a Glock) is going to accomplish anything (except make it easier to jerk the shot off target, particularly for those who don't train in the first place...who, ironically enough, are the one's targeted with this "solution"...kind of a vicious cycle huh?...).

 

[Archangel M]

@#$% heavy triggers. Keep your booger hook off of the lever till you are going to shoot.

 

[harold]

The officers are stuck with what their department makes them carry. My suggestion is practice so that 9# trigger is comfortable.
My duty weapon is a Sig P226 with the DAK trigger and I love it

 

[sgtmac_46]

If you can't be trusted to keep your finger off the trigger under stress......you shouldn't BE a cop! Period. You're a hazard who's dangerous to yourself and others.

As has been said, it's a hardware solution to a software problem, and as the great late Jeff Cooper said, you can't make a gun fool-proof because there is no proof against fools.

What REALLY happens, though, is you get cops who can't be trusted to keep their finger off the trigger, firing guns with 9 pound triggers that can't hit anything but an innocent by-stander down the block.

The idiocy of thinking you can't teach someone to keep their finger off a trigger, but you CAN teach them to fire accurate with a gun with a tremendously heavy trigger pull, is the height of stupidity.

IMHO.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not a LEO, but I personally feel that the "heavy triggers" are a hardware solution to a software problem...in other words, trying to use a mechanical device to make up for a deficiency in training.
If your finger is on the trigger when it shouldn't be, I don't thing there is any guarantee that a heavier trigger will prevent you from discharging the weapon if you convulsively tighten your grip as part of a "startle-response."

I'm doing some looking, cause I know I've seen the numbers somewhere, but I seem to recall that the pressure exerted under the startle-response is, on average, significantly more than what is required to pull any trigger out there.

I'm not arguing for a 1# bull's-eye match trigger. However, I also don't think that adding 4 or 5 lbs. to the stock pull (i.e. the "NY" return springs in a Glock) is going to accomplish anything (except make it easier to jerk the shot off target, particularly for those who don't train in the first place...who, ironically enough, are the one's targeted with this "solution"...kind of a vicious cycle huh?...).

EXACTLY! And what is fundamentally more dangerous? Relying on an officer to be trained to keep his finger OFF the trigger, or giving an officer a gun with which he is MORE likely to pull a shot, miss his target, and send a round zinging down range to hit god knows what?

As usual the whole idea of a heavy trigger pull is the brain child of some dip dink administrator somewhere who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, and hasn't had to point a firearm in anger in 30 years.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Not an LEO, but like to think I know my way around guns, so:




Massad Ayoob discusses the decline of single-action acceptability both in his 2006 Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery and an article in the HANDGUNS 2010 ANNUAL, Court issues and armed citizen self-defense. He stated within this article that using a "hair trigger" is not recommended. He goes on writing how two police officers who were involved in fatal shootings using a S&W .38 special. He goes on to explain each of their situation, one being Crown v. Alan Gosset where the gun became unintentionally cocked and accidentally discharged in a high stress moment which killed the escaping prisoner who the officer was holding at gunpoint. He was convicted of manslaughter in the first trial and acquitted in the second trial. The other was Florida v. Luis Alvarez. The court concocted a "cocked-gun accident" it took eight weeks to have the officer acquitted. As a civilian the odds won't be in my favor as they would were I an LEO. My SIG and all my snubbies, and ANY sidearm I ever again buy for personal carry will always be DAO.

Why?

David Kenik goes into the effect of Body Alarm Reaction and adrenaline stress and it's deleterious effect on fine motor skill in his article Are Single-Action Triggers Street Safe? in the April/May 2006 issue of Handguns Magazine:

http://www.armedresponsetraining.com/articles/1911streetsafe.pdf

We simply know more than we used to about the physiological reaction to adrenaline and it's effect on motor skill than we used to back in the days of the 1911. For good or ill, it's now realistically a double action only world. "Keep the finger off the trigger" is not the simple answer that it seems if you can't feel your finger.

That's why I feel the 8 pound NY1 trigger is a good addition to any Glock intended to be carried for duty or defense.

Yeah, I find it funny the final words in the article.....'You still need to train to keep your finger out of the trigger guard!' Duh, you think?

Bottom line........heavy triggers don't prevent negligent discharges, period. They DO make accurate shots more difficult, increasing the number of bullets in the air addressed to whom it may concern. If they don't prevent negligent, discharges, if only training can prevent ND's, then what is the point?

 

[KenpoTex]

...bullets in the air addressed to whom it may concern.

hehehe...nice, I like that

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It's kinda my point, they do one more thing to handicap those who are there to serve and protect us.

These rules were made by lawyers, they should only be made by officers or better yet officers who have fired in the line of duty.

When I was 19, I worked at a Gunrange/ store in Fla (Shooter's Emporium) and a few of the range officers were current or retired LEO's and I would hear alot of gripes from these guys about weapon selection. Most carried their Dream gun on the range and only trained with their duty weapon enough to stay comfortable with it.

That job was also a wake up call, as I saw how many LEO's
can't shot very well, even doing slow fire target shooting and were totally enept when it came to combat shooting.

I remeber one of these guys saying after watching me shoot "I am glad your a decent guy because your exactly the kind of guy I dont ever want to get in a firefight against. You should cut your hair and join the force kid."

(I had hair down to my mid back then, I was a musician.)

We had a detective come in one time to see if we could get his .38 snubby out of his holster, it had corroded to it so bad we had to use a knife to get it out and then I soaked it in Breakfree for 2 days.
(He gave me $50! for the job.)

Now before I get some of you LEO's PO'd, some of the best shooters I have seen were LEO's, so I know there is a decent number who take the skill seriously.

If I was a Cop I would try to shoot a box of ammo through my duty weapon and 2 of .22 once a week on average.

I know alot of departments don't encourage that much practice but imagine how many bad shootings would be curbed? And maybe more departments would start trusting officers to choose their own weapons, with in reason. A single action 1911 is one of the safest guns there is, IF you know how it is to be carried and operated. Every police station should hgave a small 1 or 2 lane, 30 foot pistol range soyou could pop off a mag before shift if you feel like it.

I like my Glock, but the 1911 is the one I keep loaded as you have to hold it correctly and take off the safty before fireing, where as with the Glock you just have to pull the trigger, therefor it stays in a box at home, unloaded untill I want to take it with me somewhere.


Thanks for all the input.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The problem comes down to administrators who have been sold a bill of goods, or invented them on their own, who have little first hand knowledge of the situation, and probably haven't been on a traffic stop in 15 years or more.

They become concerned with 'Accidental Discharges' that result in some suspect getting shot, so their solution becomes to buy heavier triggers......moronic.

But trainers have a responsibility to talk some sense in to them. They start by asking which do they think will cost more out of the city coffers...........some felon getting shot because some cop put his finger on the trigger, and caused an ND........or several rounds MISSING, and killing some 2 year old child down the block! More importantly, which can we live with easier.

Once that point is made, follow that up with 'Which is an EASIER problem to prevent?' It's far easier to teach cops to keep their fingers out of the trigger guard than it is to teach them to shoot accurate with a gun with a 9+ pound trigger!




And sadly part of the administrator thinking comes down to MONEY.........training costs more than a $4.00 part! And the bean counters jump on a hardware solution to a software problem.

 

[Hudson69]

When I went from a local PD (a good sized one in Colorado, about 650 Officers) to the State I had to transition from a Smith to a Glock; also from 9mm to 40.

When I had started with the PD we had 5906 Smith's. Great guns and they had external safeties and mag safties (no mag, no bang). Right before I left we were transitioning over to the M&P, still in 9.

As soon as I learned I would get a 40 Glock I went and bought one; know your weapon I say.

Since starting with the State I have been to the Armorer's Course and appreciate the Glock guns even more but I also feel that, unless you really train with them and are willing to put in the time that you shouldn't carry one, LEO or not. These are really combat oriented guns with no real safeties to speak of (the trigger does not count). They are pull, point and shoot guns; great for cops and military (those who actually train with them) and for avid shooters who understand that with a round in the chamber is doesnt take much to launch a solid missile down range.

The NY triggers are for agencies that, IMO, dont fully trust their own training and people completely. They are really heavy (I have shot them) and still dont make them really any safer but more of a hindrance to a combat shooter.

My .02 only

 

[sgtmac_46]

When I went from a local PD (a good sized one in Colorado, about 650 Officers) to the State I had to transition from a Smith to a Glock; also from 9mm to 40.

When I had started with the PD we had 5906 Smith's. Great guns and they had external safeties and mag safties (no mag, no bang). Right before I left we were transitioning over to the M&P, still in 9.

As soon as I learned I would get a 40 Glock I went and bought one; know your weapon I say.

Since starting with the State I have been to the Armorer's Course and appreciate the Glock guns even more but I also feel that, unless you really train with them and are willing to put in the time that you shouldn't carry one, LEO or not. These are really combat oriented guns with no real safeties to speak of (the trigger does not count). They are pull, point and shoot guns; great for cops and military (those who actually train with them) and for avid shooters who understand that with a round in the chamber is doesnt take much to launch a solid missile down range.

The NY triggers are for agencies that, IMO, dont fully trust their own training and people completely. They are really heavy (I have shot them) and still dont make them really any safer but more of a hindrance to a combat shooter.

My .02 only

Spot on!