MMA Misconception?

[celtic_crippler]

A prospective student entered our school yesterday and of course had questions about what we teach.

We're a Kenpo school, and as I did my best to answer his questions he says, "I was talking to some guys at the MMA school and they said they would own a Kenpo guy...."

I responded using a cliche' of football that says "on any given Sunday" anything is possible. That it doesn't matter what your rank is or how many bars you have on your belt; if you get hit in the right place you will go down.

I think the problem is that too many people think in absolutes. They fail to understand that there is no be-all-end-all martial art that will make you invincible. Martial arts training only increases your chances of being the victor in a confrontation.....there is no gaurantee.

What I find odd about some MMA guys that have never trained in anything ... shall we say..classical.. is that they seem to show a lack of respect for martial arts. They seem to think that "MMA training" is all there is.

Funny thing is that most champions actually have a "classical" background! A few examples:
GSP: Kyokushin Karate
Bas Rutten: Tae Kwon Do, Kyokushin
Randy Couture: Greco-Roman & collegiate wrestling
Chuck Liddell: Kempo Karate
Anderson Silva: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Are they not aware of this?

Is MMA gotten to the point where its practioners find no value in "classical" training? If so, I think that's a huge mistake on thier part.

Do you find that there generally a disrespect for more classical or traditional based martial arts among MMA practioners in general?

If so, why do you think this is; especially since many of its champions have training in classical or traditional arts?

Thoughts?

Comments?

 

[Hawke]

I see people having a misconception in the martial arts in general.

The MMA players I know and play with study other traditional arts so I don't see them giving disrespect for the traditional arts.

I do see other people (martial artist included) think their art is superior to others.

Sadly I know some people (non martial artist) that think that TMA are things of the past and that MMA is the wave of the future (reminds me of a line in Say Anything).

I wonder what the future of the martial art world will be like a 100 years from now.

 

[Andrew Green]

Is MMA gotten to the point where its practioners find no value in "classical" training? If so, I think that's a huge mistake on thier part.

When Karate was the hot thing it's practitioners said the same things.

When Kenpo was, same thing.

Tae Kwon Do had a shot at it as well.

When the Kung Fu movie wave hit, it was the Kung Fu guys.

Then there was a Ninja Craze in the 80's

It's just business as usual in the martial arts world.

 

[MJS]

A prospective student entered our school yesterday and of course had questions about what we teach.

We're a Kenpo school, and as I did my best to answer his questions he says, "I was talking to some guys at the MMA school and they said they would own a Kenpo guy...."

I would say alot of it is going to come down to how the Kenpo guy trains.

I responded using a cliche' of football that says "on any given Sunday" anything is possible. That it doesn't matter what your rank is or how many bars you have on your belt; if you get hit in the right place you will go down.

I agree with this 100%

I think the problem is that too many people think in absolutes. They fail to understand that there is no be-all-end-all martial art that will make you invincible. Martial arts training only increases your chances of being the victor in a confrontation.....there is no gaurantee.

Agreed again. IMO, people tend to go for the flavor of the moment. They get so wrapped up in that, that they think that what they're training is in the end all be all. MA training should certainly give you an edge, IMO, it doesnt turn you into a Superman.

What I find odd about some MMA guys that have never trained in anything ... shall we say..classical.. is that they seem to show a lack of respect for martial arts. They seem to think that "MMA training" is all there is.

What they fail to see, is that MMA training is limited as well, and despite this fact, they'll deny it until they're blue in the face. Yes, I'm sure there're some gyms that train with a SD aspect, however, the majority of MMA gyms that I've seen in my area focus on just the MMA aspect, nothing else.

Funny thing is that most champions actually have a "classical" background! A few examples:
GSP: Kyokushin Karate
Bas Rutten: Tae Kwon Do, Kyokushin
Randy Couture: Greco-Roman & collegiate wrestling
Chuck Liddell: Kempo Karate
Anderson Silva: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

And we can add Lyoto Machida (sp) to that list as well.

Are they not aware of this?

Probably not.

Is MMA gotten to the point where its practioners find no value in "classical" training?

Most likely yes.

If so, I think that's a huge mistake on thier part.

I agree.

Do you find that there generally a disrespect for more classical or traditional based martial arts among MMA practioners in general?

Many times yes, although it depends on the person you're talking to. IMHO, both MMA and TMA can and should learn from each other. Both have so much to offer. For example....TMA should be picking up the aliveness aspect as well as the ground game. MMA should be picking up the SD side, ie: weapons, mult. opponents.

I've added alot to my own training. Would I get 'owned'...well, I have no plans on stepping into the cage. I have alot of respect for many of those fighters, but I don't have the time to devote for something like that. Additionally, I don't like the idea of limiting myself to what I can/can't do.

 

[The Anarchist]

There are those that follow a trend because it's a trend, and those who follow a trend because it is worth something.

A lot of the mixed martial artists at the professional today never had to compete amongst amateurs because they had fighting experience in some stand up style, or submission grappling, and by gaining noteriety in whatever they did. The, simply by cross training, they were sent into semi-pro (where a lot of the talent scouts for the big promotions are). So yeah, THOSE ones have "traditional" background of somekind.

Anyway, it's a safe bet that professionals aren't arguing with you.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Look.

In the very instant the repeating firearm became a viable technology, *ALL* unarmed martial arts, and not a few of the armed ones, became "obsolete", okay?

From a military context, ( which we all know by now is why martial arts are called "martial" now don't we), it's been the norm since *at least* the 20th century that it is a combination of firepower, mechanization, strategy and tactics that win wars and determine their outcome. Not hand to hand combat. Now, not that H2H WOULDN'T save an individual soldier's life here or there if his weapon jammed 3 feet from whatever enemy is the Flavor of the Generation. But it is a SECONDARY battle plan.

In a sporting context it matters but little since new sports will pop up and the rules will keep changing to keep things interesting, that's what sports do. Now, not that you CAN'T gain beneficial physical conditioning/movements from certain sports that would help you on the street, just the same. But that is a SECONDARY battle plan.

In a street context. Seriously. How often are you gonna be approached by an unarmed enemy? Seriously? Exactly.

This is one element of strategy/tactics the average criminal, quite frankly, has over the average "hobbyist" MAist. They aren't going to attack anyone they think has a chance of beating them. From the moment you realize you're zeroed, you have to understand you are *STARTING* with the deck stacked against you, even if it isn't obvious at the moment just how, whether by numbers, weapons, or both.

Yeah, I'll be going back to training soon, and yeah, I do have a few "battle plans" programmed into me as to how to handle certain things.

But all of that is, AT BEST, there as a backup for those times when

A) I cannot legally or practically carry a weapon or object that can double as one, or

B) I cannot deploy it in time to meet the present threat.


So when you get to understanding those things and the thought processes which must necessarily accompany them, does it REALLY matter of what "style" your unarmed moves "look like"?


Exactly.

 

[Cryozombie]

In a street context. Seriously. How often are you gonna be approached by an unarmed enemy? Seriously? Exactly.

This is one element of strategy/tactics the average criminal, quite frankly, has over the average "hobbyist" MAist. They aren't going to attack anyone they think has a chance of beating them. From the moment you realize you're zeroed, you have to understand you are *STARTING* with the deck stacked against you, even if it isn't obvious at the moment just how, whether by numbers, weapons, or both.

I'm gonna disagree with you about these things, but to an extent agree as well. Ok...

The first part? It's been happening a lot in my neighborhood latley... or at the very least, if they are armed, they have not been using weapons, just empty hands to beat and rob people.

The Second, I think there is an element of truth to that in the context of the part where you say "THINK"... but the fact is they can't always know going into it, so they can only assume, think, hope, whatever... and take a calculated risk... now in the one case here where 5 guys jumped a 15 year old kid, yeah, they were probably secure. But if they had jumped me, and I had my .45? *shrug* could have gone either way, eh?

As to the original post... MMA is good at what it does. It creates well honed athletes. Good fighters. It's not the end all be all martial art like so many MMA guys will have you think, any more than Bujinkan is to the Buj guys, or FMA to the FMA guys... BUT some arts are better suited to certain environments than others... In fairly general terms, MMA is better in the full contact ring than Taekwondo. Taekwondo is better in a Point fighting tournament than MMA, Karate is better in a board breaking competition than Bujinkan, Bujinkan is better in a swordfight than Karate. Yagu-Shinkage ryu is better in a swordfight than Bujinkan, but MMA most probably would beat a Yagu-shinkage ryu guy on the street unarmed... Not so much if the Yagu guy had his sword.

Truth time people... (and Im gonna geek out for a second) If they made "1 art to rule them all" then there would be no need for other arts. But IMO, the truth seems to be, the more you try and generalize an art and add more tools to the box, then yes, the more situations you are prepared for than someone who speicailzes in one area... but the person who speicalizes in that one area, will probably dominate you if you fight them in that area.

Thats why if I were faced with a swordsman, I probably wouldnt sword fight him, or if I had to fight a boxer, I wouldnt stand there and box him, or... well... I wouldn't get in the ring with an MMA guy and fight by MMA rules. Screw that noise.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A prospective student entered our school yesterday and of course had questions about what we teach.

We're a Kenpo school, and as I did my best to answer his questions he says, "I was talking to some guys at the MMA school and they said they would own a Kenpo guy...."

I responded using a cliche' of football that says "on any given Sunday" anything is possible. That it doesn't matter what your rank is or how many bars you have on your belt; if you get hit in the right place you will go down.

I think the problem is that too many people think in absolutes. They fail to understand that there is no be-all-end-all martial art that will make you invincible. Martial arts training only increases your chances of being the victor in a confrontation.....there is no gaurantee.

What I find odd about some MMA guys that have never trained in anything ... shall we say..classical.. is that they seem to show a lack of respect for martial arts. They seem to think that "MMA training" is all there is.

Funny thing is that most champions actually have a "classical" background! A few examples:
GSP: Kyokushin Karate
Bas Rutten: Tae Kwon Do, Kyokushin
Randy Couture: Greco-Roman & collegiate wrestling
Chuck Liddell: Kempo Karate
Anderson Silva: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Are they not aware of this?

Is MMA gotten to the point where its practioners find no value in "classical" training? If so, I think that's a huge mistake on thier part.

Do you find that there generally a disrespect for more classical or traditional based martial arts among MMA practioners in general?

If so, why do you think this is; especially since many of its champions have training in classical or traditional arts?

Thoughts?

Comments?

There is an MMA school near me and the owner/Head Instructor has a background in Kenpo, American kenpo, BJJ and Muay Thai and I was absolutely amazed at his passion for what he teaches and his absolute lack of any sort of feelings of superiority to any other MA or TMA. He was quite interested in my background which is mainly TCMA. There was no "I would own you" comment no disrespect and no animosity at all.

All this tells me is that he is the real deal and highly trained and very secure in his ability and does not feel the need to run down anyone else and believes that he can learn from any style that he feels will help him with his MMA.

I have had more issues with non-MMA people and newbie MMA people’s attitudes that actual real live and experience MMA people. I even talk to one once, awhile back, that said he would train any MA he thought would help him to become better and MMA and he had trained Qigong because he felt it help teach him to stay more calm and focused in the ring.

 

[Tez3]

Oh joy, another MMA v TMA argument.

Just because a couple of guys who do MMA said something about MMA it doesn't mean ALL MMA people think that. Who knows, perhaps they are idiots. So, we get a thread ...again... about how MMA people disrespect TMAs which they've never done and hey guys MMA is great for street fighting etc etc etc. Please this has been done to death, can we not go through it all again?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I like Tez.

 

[jks9199]

Look.

In the very instant the repeating firearm became a viable technology, *ALL* unarmed martial arts, and not a few of the armed ones, became "obsolete", okay?

...

In a street context. Seriously. How often are you gonna be approached by an unarmed enemy? Seriously? Exactly.

This is one element of strategy/tactics the average criminal, quite frankly, has over the average "hobbyist" MAist. They aren't going to attack anyone they think has a chance of beating them. From the moment you realize you're zeroed, you have to understand you are *STARTING* with the deck stacked against you, even if it isn't obvious at the moment just how, whether by numbers, weapons, or both.

Yeah, I'll be going back to training soon, and yeah, I do have a few "battle plans" programmed into me as to how to handle certain things.

But all of that is, AT BEST, there as a backup for those times when

A) I cannot legally or practically carry a weapon or object that can double as one, or

B) I cannot deploy it in time to meet the present threat.

I agree with much of what you said -- and you touch on my point of disagreement towards the end.

The development of knives didn't make fists obsolete. The development of nukes didn't make rifles obsolete. Advances in tactical/strategic weapons have never made the mudfoot infantryman obsolete, despite the claims of the strategic air command. And the development and proliferation of firearms has not made unarmed combat or any other form of hand-to-hand obsolete.

To begin with -- there are the examples you mention, when for whatever reason, you cannot deploy a firearm or other weapon. Maybe someone broke into your house, and attacked you in the shower... Or the only line of fire you have could dump rounds into a playground packed with kids.

But there's another reason that personal combat is not obsolete. Guns are great, if you simply want to kill someone. What if you need to take them prisoner? I'm a cop; I cannot simply shoot someone I want to arrest. A soldier may need to take a prisoner for many reasons. As a private citizen, you may simply be accosted by your drunken idiot buddy... do you really want to shoot him dead for being a dumbass drunk? Weapons and armed combat aren't always the best choice.

You did make one very important point that often gets overlooked. MMA is great fun to watch -- but both fighters know when the match is, where it will be, and who their opponent will be. (It's that other guy in shorts over there... even if they don't know his name.) A real attack doesn't come on schedule, with notice. And a real attacker seeks to optimize HIS chances while minimizing your opportunity to defend, as a general rule.

 

[jks9199]

Oh joy, another MMA v TMA argument.

Just because a couple of guys who do MMA said something about MMA it doesn't mean ALL MMA people think that. Who knows, perhaps they are idiots. So, we get a thread ...again... about how MMA people disrespect TMAs which they've never done and hey guys MMA is great for street fighting etc etc etc. Please this has been done to death, can we not go through it all again?

That's a great point... The folks I've heard trumpet "MMA is best" are the same sorts that would have said "martial arts are silly" a few years back, as a general rule. The handful of serious MMA folks I've met have lots of respect for the more traditional arts. After all, that's where they pulled many of their techniques from!

 

[Tez3]

thanks Andy I like you too ! :ultracool

In every style theres an idiot who says he can 'take' anyone who doesn't do his style.
In every style theres an idiot who says his style is best for street self defence and everyone else's style is pants.
In every style there is a wannabe Jet Li/ Bruce Lee/Jean Claude/Power Ranger whatever.
The answer is not to get wound up when one of these is bumping his gums.
Are you happy with your style? Good, then don't worry what anyone else is doing or saying, Train and be happy. Remember! Violence is the answer to everything LOL!

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I agree with much of what you said -- and you touch on my point of disagreement towards the end.

The development of knives didn't make fists obsolete. The development of nukes didn't make rifles obsolete. Advances in tactical/strategic weapons have never made the mudfoot infantryman obsolete, despite the claims of the strategic air command. And the development and proliferation of firearms has not made unarmed combat or any other form of hand-to-hand obsolete.

To begin with -- there are the examples you mention, when for whatever reason, you cannot deploy a firearm or other weapon. Maybe someone broke into your house, and attacked you in the shower... Or the only line of fire you have could dump rounds into a playground packed with kids.

But there's another reason that personal combat is not obsolete. Guns are great, if you simply want to kill someone. What if you need to take them prisoner? I'm a cop; I cannot simply shoot someone I want to arrest. A soldier may need to take a prisoner for many reasons. As a private citizen, you may simply be accosted by your drunken idiot buddy... do you really want to shoot him dead for being a dumbass drunk? Weapons and armed combat aren't always the best choice.

You did make one very important point that often gets overlooked. MMA is great fun to watch -- but both fighters know when the match is, where it will be, and who their opponent will be. (It's that other guy in shorts over there... even if they don't know his name.) A real attack doesn't come on schedule, with notice. And a real attacker seeks to optimize HIS chances while minimizing your opportunity to defend, as a general rule.

You said it while bringing up very good points that i didn't, but that was basically what I was getting at(I hope)-- that with the totality of everything that takes place in "Go time", and their order of importance, that to place one's "Swagger ratio" on the element which figures least is stupid.

Like if a soldier was to be deployed, his helmet, body armor, rifle and radio are his main tools, but ohh boy, he's got a meeean folding knife somewhere in one of those pockets, woohoo.

Or Gee, I have my 1911 which is full of Hydra-Shok but hey, look out, 'cause that one random round somewhere in the magazine is a *gasp* Black Talon, whoa-ho-HOOO, Nellie!.

 

[Cryozombie]

Or the only line of fire you have could dump rounds into a playground packed with kids.

Screw them, then, they shouldn't be in my line of fire! :roflmao:

I kid, I kid.

 

[Steve]

A prospective student entered our school yesterday and of course had questions about what we teach.

We're a Kenpo school, and as I did my best to answer his questions he says, "I was talking to some guys at the MMA school and they said they would own a Kenpo guy...."

I responded using a cliche' of football that says "on any given Sunday" anything is possible. That it doesn't matter what your rank is or how many bars you have on your belt; if you get hit in the right place you will go down.

I think the problem is that too many people think in absolutes. They fail to understand that there is no be-all-end-all martial art that will make you invincible. Martial arts training only increases your chances of being the victor in a confrontation.....there is no gaurantee.

What I find odd about some MMA guys that have never trained in anything ... shall we say..classical.. is that they seem to show a lack of respect for martial arts. They seem to think that "MMA training" is all there is.

Funny thing is that most champions actually have a "classical" background! A few examples:
GSP: Kyokushin Karate
Bas Rutten: Tae Kwon Do, Kyokushin
Randy Couture: Greco-Roman & collegiate wrestling
Chuck Liddell: Kempo Karate
Anderson Silva: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

Are they not aware of this?

Is MMA gotten to the point where its practioners find no value in "classical" training? If so, I think that's a huge mistake on thier part.

Do you find that there generally a disrespect for more classical or traditional based martial arts among MMA practioners in general?

If so, why do you think this is; especially since many of its champions have training in classical or traditional arts?

Thoughts?

Comments?

Interesting post! My experience has been that there is great respect for some traditional martial arts among MMAers (or is it MMArtists? Hmm) and general indifference to others (sometimes bordering on derision). This has more to do with training philosophy than style or focus. So, Kyokoshin Karate, with full contact sparring and an "alive" component will be better respected than, say, Wing Chun. Or Boxing, for example, will be better respected than other arts.

I think that this is reality for now, but I do worry/wonder about what is going to happen down the road. One of the things that MMA students often fall back on are the traditional styles that are being taught. HOwever, as these styles become more diluted, and the students crosstrain from the beginning, it will be difficult to keep that argument going. It's more and more common now for an MMA fighter to train at one gym for his Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and BJJ rather than to study all of these at different schools. And any traditional training they do is often as an adjunct. GSP, for example, doesn't train often (if at all) in karate anymore. He's training boxing with pros, wrestling with the canadian national team, etc.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One thing that needs to be considered is that MMA promotes itself as the toughest thing going because it is competing for viewers with boxing, football, and WWE. When you're competing for ratings, you're going to get marketing gurus to come up with ways to tout your tournaments. "The meanest, toughest, strongest athletes in the world strive against eachother for the title. And its only on UFC!"
Then the viewers and newbies regurgitate the taglines and make comments like, 'mma owns (insert fighting style name) any day of the week' to TMA practitioners, or anyone else who they talk to. Kind of like the fanboy who argues about how Wolverine can own this, that or the other superhero.

The general public cannot get past the marketing necessary for MMA to be viable televised event. Its the same marketing that boxing had when I was younger.

But as has already been observed, the serious mma practitioners aren't the ones making these comments. I generally ignore such quips from the uninformed because thats all that they are. Also, these guys and/or gals are looking for you to respond with a retort of, 'TMA is too better than MMA.' They enjoy the verbal sparring. Also, since they can't personally 'own' anyone, they compete vicariously by touting MMA over whatever else. Then, when an MMA athlete does well against a TMA athlete, they feel like they have a share in the victory.

Just like the comic fanboy does when Wolverine does well agains Spiderman.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

One thing that needs to be considered is that MMA promotes itself as the toughest thing going because it is competing for viewers with boxing, football, and WWE. When you're competing for ratings, you're going to get marketing gurus to come up with ways to tout your tournaments. "The meanest, toughest, strongest athletes in the world strive against eachother for the title. And its only on UFC!"
Then the viewers and newbies regurgitate the taglines and make comments like, 'mma owns (insert fighting style name) any day of the week' to TMA practitioners, or anyone else who they talk to. Kind of like the fanboy who argues about how Wolverine can own this, that or the other superhero.

The general public cannot get past the marketing necessary for MMA to be viable televised event. Its the same marketing that boxing had when I was younger.

But as has already been observed, the serious mma practitioners aren't the ones making these comments. I generally ignore such quips from the uninformed because thats all that they are. Also, these guys and/or gals are looking for you to respond with a retort of, 'TMA is too better than MMA.' They enjoy the verbal sparring. Also, since they can't personally 'own' anyone, they compete vicariously by touting MMA over whatever else. Then, when an MMA athlete does well against a TMA athlete, they feel like they have a share in the victory.

Just like the comic fanboy does when Wolverine does well agains Spiderman.

Daniel

Oh well put like that I shall of course grovel and beg pardon for every MMA person in the world then shall I?

You obviously have all us MMA people pegged, based I assume on the UFC and it's fans.

 

[IcemanSK]

In addition to what Andrew Green said about every Art having it's season to say "we're the best" I have another thought.

Even in TMA a lot of folks are ignorant about their own history. In MMA, tradition & history are even less important. Techniques & stratedgy is discussed much more often than "this guy/gal who taught me this technique comes from this style". Let alone what is involved in that style. In MMA the important thing is "what works" much more so than "where did that technique come from.

For the MMA guy in the OP to state that "my style would bury X style" he most likely doesn't know whether or not his style comes from Kenpo or any other style. I've talked to a few BJJ guys that don't know where Ju Jitsu came from originally.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh well put like that I shall of course grovel and beg pardon for every MMA person in the world then shall I?

You obviously have all us MMA people pegged, based I assume on the UFC and it's fans.

Well it is all your fault after all...isn't it :uhyeah: