Kosutemi Seieikan - Intro, General Info and Basics

[OnlyAnEgg]

Good Morning:

Just a quick post to say 'Hi'. I had posted on this forum a year or so ago while I was considering taking up MA again after a hiatus from TKD. I've been looking for a dojo on and off in the past year and found one, finally, about 15 minutes from home. My wife, two stepchildren (f-11, m-7) and I began study of Ko Sutemi under Sensei Danny Phillips.

My question, if anyone would like to help, deals with the differences between Shotokan and Ko Sutemi. At this time, I know that Sutemi is derived from Shotokan and Master Funakoshi. My experience is with TKD and not the Japanese/Okinawan styles.

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you,

egg

 

[searcher]

I have found several website sthat contain information on this style. So far thwe differences I se are in the names of the kata. They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that? I will keep looking and see what I can come up with.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?

I saw that, too. That could simply be the 'We're Number 1!' mindset. My Sensei has not made such a claim to me personally.

egg

 

[JAMJTX]

There are a few concers in looking at the web site.

The "Soke" claims to be a 9th Dan in Karate. But all it says about his training is that he learned Jujitsu from his father in 1942. That would be quite unusual, unless his father lived in Hawaii or CA and got in with Okazaki or some of his students. I don't know any other group that taught Jujitsu to occidentals. It is likely that it was Judo. Also, there is no indication of where he got his karate training, when, for how long, who his teachers were or who promoted him to 9th Dan.

If this is supposed to be some off shoot of Shotokan, it should not be too difficult to research his Shotokan background. Ask him who his teachers were and where he got that 9th Dan. Then contact them and ask for verification. If it seems like some hokey organization ask back here about them.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

In defence of Soke Madden, I see that his claim to The World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame is legitimate.

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[Randy Strausbaugh]

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan appears to be a mixture of Shotokan with Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu. The style has a strong emphasis on tournament competition.

Don Madden trained Tokey Hill, who won the WUKO world championships. Tokey Hill now states that what he himself teaches is Shotokan.

I was there when Mr. Madden received his 8th or 9th dan in jujitsu. It was at the Irish Cup tournament in the Shoemaker Center gym at OU-C. The rank was awarded by his students.

A friend of mine dates a girl in Don Madden's karate class in Chillicothe. He said that she claims that there is hardly any emphasis in the class on traditional karate or on self defense, just in getting ready for the next tournament (please note that this is third-hand info).

Also under the organizational banner is Seiei-kan Jujitsu, Seiei-kan Tomiki Aikido, and Seiei-kan Shaolin.

Their website is akjuteamamerica.com

Hope this helps.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.

egg

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.

egg

Understood. I was just conveying info which came to me about classes taught by the system's head.
If you like the style, don't worry about what others say, just go for it.
Happy training!

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Thank you and my apologies if I seemed defensive. I appreciate the information. I will say this thing, though: membership in the AKJU is optional within the dojo. If I want to be belted, however (and perhaps compete) membership is reasonably priced. I found that interesting.


egg

 

[searcher]

There is nothing wrong with competition as long as you have other things to go with it and it sounds like you are getting that. I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him. My opinion is if it works for you then go for it.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him.

As I learn more about the lineage of my Sensei and his teachers, I will gladly share it here. My teacher frequently visits his teachers; so, I believe I will get to meet Mr. Madden, in time.

egg

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

While Sensei and I sparred last night, he shared some of his thoughts and definitions on Ko Sutemi with me.

First, he spoke of Ko Sutemi being an American system. Although derived from Shotokan, it is a combination of other forms designed to provide the fighter with enough resources to win.

Second, he stressed the definition of Ko Sutemi as 'small sacrifice'. I should be willing to recieve a body shot if I can throw a head shot because of it. Ko Sutemi also means 'success by all means' and positiveness.

Practicing my first kata, fu ku gata ichi, I see that it is similar to TKD's white belt kibon; therefore, similar to many first rung forms.

Sensei is very much a hand fighter. I tend to kick more than punch. He said, with a smile, he would teach me to fight properly.

Right now, we practice with children and adults combined. I'm told that, once fall settles in, more adults will return and classes will be separated once again.


egg

 

[Gene Williams]

Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.

 

[Andrew Green]

Nah, it happens all the time. Head of associations often get promoted by there own association. And really, since the rank has no meaning outside of that organization, who cares?

Gichin Funakoshi never called himself anything higher then 5th, students promoted him after he died if I remember correctly. But there are a good deal of Shotokanees that are higher then 5th, soI'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that not everyone has been promoted by someon of higher rank then them.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.

If there were nothing to counter that, I would've considered it a red flag. There is, however, in my dojo, few red flags so far. Emphasis is on kata, basics and effective fighting. There is no push for rank, competition, trophies, belt-fees or the like. This statement is qualified with 'at this time'.

egg

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Hmmm, all of a sudden it seems like you're my first Ko Sutemi student in 6 years. ... No bowing required. The invoice for your monthly class fee is in the mail. lol

arigato :asian:

It seems that Ko Sutemi Seieikan is not a frequently spoken-of art. It is, therefor, excellent to have someone to talk to.

 

[Navarre]

Despite a few of the disparaging comments here, Ko Sutemi is not bunk. It is also not solely for tournaments.

It is true that most classes seem to focus a lot on tournaments but I have found most of my techniques to apply readily in real situations. Like any art, it has more to do with your teacher and what you put into it than it does with what label you put on it.

There are techniques I no longer emphasize in my integrated system, such as the rising block. It was hard for me to let go of one of "The Basics" but I didn't find it to be as effective in real life as other protective techniques. There was therefore no need to force students to practice it endlessly. However, almost every principle in the art has served me well.

I also found that those principles made my transition to a more fluid art (in my case ju-jitsu) fairly easy. In my 12 years of ju-jitsu training I have seen many practioners of other arts (some higher ranked than myself) struggle greatly with the concept on angled attacks, flow, and relaxed power.

By this statement I am not suggesting that the important thing was that I move to another art anyway because my karate training still gives me many advantages that my ju-jitsu colleagues don't have.

Always take what works and discard what doesn't. Of course, I know right now you don't have that option nor will your sensei suddenly stop teaching rising blocks just because of my opinion. That's okay. For now, train hard in everything because it all comes together. In time you will find what works for you.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I have read very few negative comments about this or any other art on this board. Maybe I'm not looking close enough or, perhaps, I simply overlook such posts.


I admit that my dojo works toward tournaments. However, it does not do so at the expense of traditional work or basics training or good health. Sensei loves his bragging rights

I do enjoy this style and I like Sensei. He's genuine and open; but, I can see myself transitioning to another art at some distant point. Wing Chun, I like and some other Chinese styles. There are many to choose from. Seieikan will be a good foundation for these, I agree.

I do train hard. Some things are easier, even at this short interval. I will continue.

Arigato

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

Ok...back to some sembelance of reality

I'm going to start to tape my practice here at home. I can't think of a better critic than myself when it comes to me.

Question: has anyone else taped themselves? is it a good idea or a trip into despair?

thanks

 

[Navarre]

No, I think it's a great idea. I've taped my katas and techniques, as well as belt tests. It shows me progression, even regression, and easily points out areas to be improved. I have to take into account intangible things like age, conditioning, spiritual state, and so forth but it is indeed a very helpful tool.

My sensei also had some tapes of himself as a white belt and yellow belt. One day when I was struggling and felt like I didn't have what it took, he showed methe tapes. We laughed together at them and I realized that all of our journies are perpetually uphill but worth the trip.