Kosho E Lessons

[Danjo]

Here's a fun one for you all.: http://www.koshoelessons.com/

I guess since Juchnik learned everything from sitting down and talking with Mitose, he's comfortable with this approach. Look at the bottom of the page and you can also learn Gracie JJ, Submission Grappling and Escrima online too.

Here's my favorite line: "The Most Complete and Effective KoshoShorei Ryu Instructional Available on the Internet! "

Now we can all be true "Keyboard Warriors" !

 

[Danjo]

Hey Doc,

When can we expect to see Sublevel 4 E Lessons?

 

[Carol]

Hey Doc,

When can we expect to see Sublevel 4 E Lessons?

As soon as we have virtual bodies that face virtual threats, maybe he will have a virtual classroom? :idunno:

 

[MJS]

Thread moved to Horror Stories

MJS
MT Supermod

 

[Martial Arts E Center]

I'd like to respond to danjo's post.....I know this has been done to death, but obviously mr danjo is having alot of trouble with different learning systems like lectures, books, videos, the internet. Dont colleges have lectures and videos by the professors as part of most courses? It has been proven that rote learners like mr. Danjo seems to be, have a hard time generalizing out from what they have been shown, making it very hard to understand conceptual ideas and principles, which keeps them stuck in their preconceived patterns. When Mr Juchnik studied from Mr. Mitose, he already knew how to punch, kick, etc.... what Mr. Mitose passed on to him were principles, natural laws, etc... what is better? learning HOW to throw or just learning specific throws? I personally was shown by Mr. Juchnik the lesson Mr. Mitose showed him on folding and throwing. I found it very insightful and regard it as one of the best lessons I have ever had. He was also told to visit certain people to learn things Mr. Mitose couldn't show him there in that setting. I have never seen one person who has withnessed Mr Juchnik's demonstrations doubt his martial abilites....
As for the E Lessons.... why is it so hard to understand how this could be a valuable tool? Everyday we learn from books, tapes, dvds, cds, talking, listening, etc... This is NOT meant to replace a qualified instructor! This is not for rank! This is meant to be a progressive interactive learning TOOL to teach the principles, techniques, history, etc of these arts. Also, not everyone has the geographic opportunities to study from Hanshi Juchnik. By using the internet, you can study from Hanshi no matter where you are located. When I watch Hanshi Juchnik teach a principle, I can only pick up so much of what he is actually trying to impart. By studying these lessons over and over, you are going to see things you couldn't see in a time limited class or seminar setting. What did his hips do and why? his feet? his weight distributions, etc... and... you can asking him questions about these things anytime you want, as much as you want.... We can provide you with all the information you need to learn the technical aspects of Kosho Shorei Ryu, but you still need to physically train with partners.
As for your favorite part... the most effective Kosho Instructional Available on the Internet... While we are just starting out with Kosho E Lessons, adding new material every day, we stand behind that statement... show us another one that has so much information, is interactive, and is so cost effective, and is taught by Hanshi himself......

I also find it very judgemental of Mr. Danjo to comment on these e lessons without his having tried them.... 'Contempt prior to investigation?'

We have been doing this for almost two years with Gracie E Lessons with great results... Why not with Kosho Kempo? Escrima?

 

[Danjo]

I suspect that this mysterious poster is none other than Gary Brewer. If not, then by all means come forward and take credit for your post.

I have posted about distance learning before and my experiences with it. i stand by that and the fact that I don't believe that it works.

Juchnik talks a very good game, but ultimately fails to convince with his changing stories about how he learned Kosho Ryu etc. Now he's trying to make money on the internet doing this nonsense. Learn BJJ over the internet? Don't make me laugh. I've trained that stuff live at the Ralph Gracie Academy and know that there is no way you can learn it except to get on the mats and roll with someone better than you at it. Period. Same with Escrima, Sub Grappling and any decent form of Kenpo out there.

If Kosho Ryu can be learned this way, then it's not worth learning. College courses can be taught this way because they are intellectual, not physical. How many distant courses in PE do you see being taught in college?

Please post your true identity or else go somewhere else and post.

Dan Weston

 

[7starmantis]

Gentlemen, lets keep this discussion on a mature and respectful level. You can disagree without crossing the line.

7starmantis
MT Asst. Admin

 

[Kacey]

Dont colleges have lectures and videos by the professors as part of most courses?

A few? Yes. Most? No, not even close - and physical education is not among the common choices. There are many things I would not be willing to learn on an electronic media, and martials is among those things. Like mathematics, science lab, or counseling, to give a few examples, some things need to be demonstrated in person, and immediate feedback provided, for the person to truly learn. I would include any physical skill, especially those in which improper performance could lead to injury, among those topics. A coworker of mine took an on-line class as part of her associate's degree, and disliked it intensely; she found the recorded lectures difficult to follow, and particularly disliked not being able to interact with the professor directly, as the time necessary to ask questions via email and receive responses was frustrating, and often produced responses that, while informative, did not really answer the question asked. If that was her experience with a basic English class, I cannot imagine how much worse it would be in a class requiring precise physical movements, which are often hard to ask questions about in writing, rather than through demonstration.

It has been proven that rote learners like mr. Danjo seems to be, have a hard time generalizing out from what they have been shown, making it very hard to understand conceptual ideas and principles, which keeps them stuck in their preconceived patterns.

I have been in TKD for 19 years, and I have learned a great deal from reference materials - both text and video - but every time I work out with my instructor, he provides feedback on my technique that I cannot get from individual, media-based materials. Nor could I learn from the moral components that I have gained from his instruction, and that of other seniors it has been my privilege to be instructed by, from text or electronic media. I have gained a great deal of supplementary information from media sources, but they cannot, in my opinion, replace the personal attention of a qualified instructor. I can't speak for Danjo's learning style, as I don't know him personally; for myself, however, I learned considerably more about "conceptual ideas and principles" from my instructor and other seniors than I have learned from supplemental materials, no matter the quality of those materials, because the discussions that occur in person are of much more use to me... and even the information I garner from media supplements spark questions that the supplements cannot answer, and which I take back to my instructor. That's what works for me. If your system works for others, then, kudos... but for me, I would find it to be ineffective.

When Mr Juchnik studied from Mr. Mitose, he already knew how to punch, kick, etc.... what Mr. Mitose passed on to him were principles, natural laws, etc... what is better? learning HOW to throw or just learning specific throws? I personally was shown by Mr. Juchnik the lesson Mr. Mitose showed him on folding and throwing. I found it very insightful and regard it as one of the best lessons I have ever had. He was also told to visit certain people to learn things Mr. Mitose couldn't show him there in that setting. I have never seen one person who has withnessed Mr Juchnik's demonstrations doubt his martial abilites....

So you, yourself, learned best in person; at least, that's how this reads to me. Certainly, I have used media supplementals (videos) in the fashion you describe; however, without the feedback provided by another person who has knowledge of the art and the techniques being practiced, I find it very difficult to determine if I am truly understanding the technique being demonstrated, and even more, truly knowing if I am performing it properly. This has nothing to do with the quality of the person on the video, in my opinion; for myself, simply because I can see something over and over, at varying speeds, does not mean that I can, necessarily, tell if I am performing it properly.

As for the E Lessons.... why is it so hard to understand how this could be a valuable tool? Everyday we learn from books, tapes, dvds, cds, talking, listening, etc... This is NOT meant to replace a qualified instructor! This is not for rank! This is meant to be a progressive interactive learning TOOL to teach the principles, techniques, history, etc of these arts. Also, not everyone has the geographic opportunities to study from Hanshi Juchnik. By using the internet, you can study from Hanshi no matter where you are located. When I watch Hanshi Juchnik teach a principle, I can only pick up so much of what he is actually trying to impart. By studying these lessons over and over, you are going to see things you couldn't see in a time limited class or seminar setting. What did his hips do and why? his feet? his weight distributions, etc... and... you can asking him questions about these things anytime you want, as much as you want.... We can provide you with all the information you need to learn the technical aspects of Kosho Shorei Ryu, but you still need to physically train with partners.

I looked at the referenced website; I looked at every link on the page. At no point does it say that this is a supplement to a qualified instructor; in fact, I could not find any reference to an individual instructor anywhere on the site. Perhaps, if reference to using this site as a tool, rather than in place of a qualified instructor, were visible somewhere on the site, this discussion would be somewhat different. The way the site is set up, however, it looks, to an outsider, as if the information provided on the site is all-inclusive and all a person needs to learn independently of an instructor. If I missed something stating that this is a supplement to an instructor, then please, post a link to this information, as that would, indeed, change my opinion.

As for your favorite part... the most effective Kosho Instructional Available on the Internet... While we are just starting out with Kosho E Lessons, adding new material every day, we stand behind that statement... show us another one that has so much information, is interactive, and is so cost effective, and is taught by Hanshi himself......

I cannot speak to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this teaching methodology, as I don't have any experience with either the method or the style... but I will say that I don't find $21.95/month particularly "cost-effective", when supplemental media can be purchased for a one-time cost, my instructor is available for questions at all classes, and additionally by phone and email, as are other seniors, as well as many qualified persons on sites such as MT, all for no additional cost. I teach TKD at a YMCA, where students pay $65/session (7 weeks). At that rate, members are receiving direct instruction at a monthly cost of just over $30 - except for those who are on scholarship, who pay anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of the regular cost, and some of them have difficulty paying every session, because the $25-32 they pay is a stretch for their budgets (at which point I waive the dues, generally). At that rate, I don't find internet-based instruction to be particularly cost-effective; as an additional cost on top of training dues I would find it difficult to justify.

I also find it very judgemental of Mr. Danjo to comment on these e lessons without his having tried them.... 'Contempt prior to investigation?'

As I said, for myself I would find this method to be singularly ineffective; I cannot imagine taking a martial art as an on-line class, and I cannot think, for myself, that I would find it effective as the primary method of instruction.

As far as Danjo's "contempt prior to investigation", I see no contempt in his posts; dismay and amusement, perhaps, but not contempt. I suspect you will find that many people with any experience in MA will hold similar opinions as to the potential effectiveness of your on-line program. As I said previously, if this is intended as a supplemental program, then, for those for whom it is effective, I have no problem - but if that is the case, then it needs to be made clear on your website, if only to protect your collective behinds when someone hurts themselves doing something incorrectly that they learned on-line. In today's litigious society, I see this as a definite possibility - that someone will perform a technique incorrectly and hurt either themselves or the partner they practice on - and then sue your organization for damages; waivers and disclaimers are often not much use in such situations, and lawsuits have been brought, and won, for much less.

We have been doing this for almost two years with Gracie E Lessons with great results... Why not with Kosho Kempo? Escrima?

I would interested in knowing how you determine "great results". Is it solely based on the amount of money generated by this teaching method? At any point, do these students see an instructor for feedback? Testing? Is that a requirement, or merely an option? If an option, is that option recommended? Mentioned at all? As I said, I looked through the site, and could not find such information.

In addition, I would like to say that I find it interesting that this is your first post on this site - no introduction, such as most people make, no information about your personal background - just a rather defensive post about a program someone dared not be positive and enthusiastic about.

 

[Martial Arts E Center]

I believe I am being respecful to mr Danjo, but I dont know if he is showing the same respect back... I am not Gary Brewer.. i do not know him or you... again you are being contemptful without investigation...

I want to get this part through to mr Danjo and hope he understands.... (but then again, he might be learning something long distance) THIS DOES NOT REPLACE HAVING AN INSTRUCTIOR...THIS IS A LEARNING TOOL... YOU STILL NEED TO PRACTICE.....Yes you have to get on the mats and roll... ....yes you have to train, yes, you have to practice ... all of that...I AM IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH YOU SIR....but that doesnt mean you cant improve you knowledge and abilities by using other sources to supplement and accelerate your learning curve.

Now I do disagree with a couple of points mr Danjo says... calling the e lessons nonsense without even trying it or chatting to someone who has tried it is very ignorant......you can only learn Bjj by rolling with someone better than you. As a Gracie jiu Jitsu student, I believe you can improve your game and learn from everyone you roll with... not only the better, but even the worse than yourself...same for escrima, sub grappling, etc
if kosho can be learned that way then its not worth learning? Come on,again dont show your ignorance by saying such an absurd statement. This is a learning tool!! You cannot sit down at the computer and become a martial arts master...but you can learn and improve by studing at the computer.. you just have to be able to actually open up and try it...then get up and practice it!

'intellectual not physical' you must be alittle behind the curve if you think martial arts are all physical... Chuck Norris has stated many times he believes a big part of his success was because of visualization.

and yes you can learn and even get certified in 'PE" courses over the internet...

I think if you actually thought about what I am saying you would see we agree on alot of things. I just think you can take something off of a video or book or dvd or cd or pictures and practice it with a partner and learn...I like to think I can learn from anyone (even someone with worse abilities), and from anything. I find it sad and I am truely sorry you had a bad experience with a previous attempt at a different learning system to the point it has made you completely closed minded on any other form of leaning without even trying it. Even if YOU cant possiblily learn something, does that mean someone else cant?

I dont believe it is necessary to identify myself to be able to post here is it? Lighten up a little big guy.. I am not attacking you or your value system.

 

[Martial Arts E Center]

Kasey,

good valid points...

First off, I am new to this forum and its ways, but I have posted on alot of different forums and didnt know I should go to a specific room to introduce myself... my fault...I apologize...

22 bucks a month is very cost effective if you take into account the cost of dvds and the amount of information given...This is meant to be interactive..questions? problems? need help with techniques? understanding principles? ask hanshi and get those answers...

I am sorry if you knew someone who didnt like a certain class or whatever, but that doesnt mean this will be bad too.. is it for everyone? probably not... can everyone learn something from it? probably yes...

Are you able to study from Hanshi Juchnik? Most probably cant, except through something like this..you can take a concept he has shown here, work with it, show your parnters, instructors, and everyone can learn that way..
Do I learn best in person.. yes.. do i get better on my time out of the dojo? yes.. how? by using dvds, videos, books, internet as supplements to add to my knoweldge.....
I am very open to feedback and I will take your suggestions and over the next few days make some changes on the sites as you suggested..

rank..no, we are not giving out rank or testing for it... great results.. from students telling us ... not from the amount of money spent... everyone of our gracie e lesson students are students at academies, with their own instructors, this enables them to recieve insight from one of the most technical instructors around...a man who continually produces champions...Cesar Gracie... now we are making the same type of program available in Kosho... and Escrima... and yes coming soon..even TKD...

 

[Kacey]

To address your last point first... no, you don't have to identify yourself; however, for myself, I find that anonymous posters who do not back up their statements with their name, experiences, and reputation are less credible. That may not be the case off the 'web... but I, personally, place more weight on people who share their credentials than those who don't. And for the record, I'm not a guy. Since you did not address anyone directly, I don't know if you're responding to me or to Danjo.

As far as your online system not replacing an instructor - as I said, I could not find reference to that anywhere on the site, and would appreciate it if you could direct me to the correct page where such a statement is made... as it could be confusing, and possibly misleading, for people who don't know that this is supplemental if such a statement is not made clearly on the webpage.

As far as your disagreements with his opinion, and his with yours - he has a right to disagree, as do you - and you both have the right to give reasons for your disagreement. Simply because someone disagrees with you does not mean that the person is being rude or confrontational; it simply means that the person disagrees. You may feel that you have been provoked, and perhaps you were, but I would ask both of you to read your own posts, and ask yourself how you would feel if such language were directed at you instead of by you.

 

[Danjo]

I believe I am being respecful to mr Danjo, but I dont know if he is showing the same respect back... I am not Gary Brewer.. i do not know him or you... again you are being contemptful without investigation...

I want to get this part through to mr Danjo and hope he understands.... (but then again, he might be learning something long distance) THIS DOES NOT REPLACE HAVING AN INSTRUCTIOR...THIS IS A LEARNING TOOL... YOU STILL NEED TO PRACTICE.....Yes you have to get on the mats and roll... ....yes you have to train, yes, you have to practice ... all of that...I AM IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH YOU SIR....but that doesnt mean you cant improve you knowledge and abilities by using other sources to supplement and accelerate your learning curve.

Now I do disagree with a couple of points mr Danjo says... calling the e lessons nonsense without even trying it or chatting to someone who has tried it is very ignorant......you can only learn Bjj by rolling with someone better than you. As a Gracie jiu Jitsu student, I believe you can improve your game and learn from everyone you roll with... not only the better, but even the worse than yourself...same for escrima, sub grappling, etc
if kosho can be learned that way then its not worth learning? Come on,again dont show your ignorance by saying such an absurd statement. This is a learning tool!! You cannot sit down at the computer and become a martial arts master...but you can learn and improve by studing at the computer.. you just have to be able to actually open up and try it...then get up and practice it!

'intellectual not physical' you must be alittle behind the curve if you think martial arts are all physical... Chuck Norris has stated many times he believes a big part of his success was because of visualization.

and yes you can learn and even get certified in 'PE" courses over the internet...

I think if you actually thought about what I am saying you would see we agree on alot of things. I just think you can take something off of a video or book or dvd or cd or pictures and practice it with a partner and learn...I like to think I can learn from anyone (even someone with worse abilities), and from anything. I find it sad and I am truely sorry you had a bad experience with a previous attempt at a different learning system to the point it has made you completely closed minded on any other form of leaning without even trying it. Even if YOU cant possiblily learn something, does that mean someone else cant?

I dont believe it is necessary to identify myself to be able to post here is it? Lighten up a little big guy.. I am not attacking you or your value system.

Firstly, I completely agree with Kacey in everything she said and couldn't have said it better myself.


Secondly, being unwilling to post your name is indicative of someone that doesn't have conviction, or else is afraid of standing up for one's beliefs. Why would you not be willing to stand publicly behind what you are saying here? What would be the reason for anonimity? I'll let the rest of the forum contemplate that one.

As to the rest, I thnk that most here are interested in the martial arts as a physical skill first and foremost. obviously, visualization etc. are part of it, but hardly the whole game. If that is your justification for internet instruction, then so be it.

 

[Danjo]

great results.. from students telling us ... not from the amount of money spent...

Students have no idea how well they're doing without a qualified instructor to tell them. yu can't watch yourself and perform at the same time.

everyone of our gracie e lesson students are students at academies, with their own instructors, this enables them to recieve insight from one of the most technical instructors around...a man who continually produces champions...Cesar Gracie

So everyone taking lessons in Kosho should also be enrolled in a Kosho School before taking these E Lessons?

... now we are making the same type of program available in Kosho... and Escrima... and yes coming soon..even TKD...

artyon:

 

[Martial Arts E Center]

thank you Danjo and Kasey for the information and feedback..... Yes physical is a big part.... mental is a big part.... we are here to supplement your training... and yes even teach some things you cant get elsewhere... not replace your physcial training... I am out of time, but tomorrow I will go to the introduction room, introduce myself and my background to both of you and the forum... please feel free to help out with feedback anytime....

thanks

 

[Martial Arts E Center]

no, i am sorry mr Danjo, i didnt mean that.... i believe if you want to learn from our e lesson program, whether kosho , escrima, gracie Jiu Jitsu, etc you should be studing somewhere... have a training partner.... etc.... but i do not believe you have to be enrolled in a kosho school to be able to have our e lesson program help you learn kosho.. if you are at a tkd school, you could study the principles and techniques from kosho e lessons and take them to tkd class and practice them... hopefully we can continue our discussion at a different time as I have to go.... thanks again..

 

[Martial Arts E Center]

you cant watch yourself and perform at the same time.... maybe not... but you can be winning and see yourself tapping more and more people you couldnt tap before... you can see or feel the technqiues flowing from combinations you learned with the elessons... or get the tap with a technique you learned from the elessons...etc....

 

[Danjo]

no, i am sorry mr Danjo, i didnt mean that.... i believe if you want to learn from our e lesson program, whether kosho , escrima, gracie Jiu Jitsu, etc you should be studing somewhere... have a training partner.... etc.... but i do not believe you have to be enrolled in a kosho school to be able to have our e lesson program help you learn kosho.. if you are at a tkd school, you could study the principles and techniques from kosho e lessons and take them to tkd class and practice them... hopefully we can continue our discussion at a different time as I have to go.... thanks again..

Sorry, but that was the implication when you commented on Gracie JJ students all being enrolled in an academy with qualified instructors.

How would a TKD student take the Gracie JJ lessons and apply them at his or her TKD school?

How would a Gracie JJ student take the Escrima lessons and apply them at his or her academy?

 

[Danjo]

you cant watch yourself and perform at the same time.... maybe not... but you can be winning and see yourself tapping more and more people you couldnt tap before... you can see or feel the technqiues flowing from combinations you learned with the elessons... or get the tap with a technique you learned from the elessons...etc....

Well, let's see. If every one of your GJJ students are already enrolled in a BJJ academy with a qualified instructor, then I fail to see how you can attribute their learning and improvement to your program.

As to the "See or feel the techniques flowing from combinations you learned with the elessons"... This is the self deceptive stuff I was talking about. It's nearly impossible to get a gauge on your improvement in a vacuum. you may feel that you are doing it right, but likely you will not be unless you have been closely observed by an instructor and told when you are doing it right and then can replicate that feeling when practicing on your own. you simply can't get that from the internet.

 

[KenpoDave]

I am not sure the E-Lesson is different than any other distance learning medium.

I think it is where distance learning is headed. These are the first, and because of that, likely some of the worst, but future models will improve upon this.

A couple of years ago, Clyde experimented with interactive E-learning via NetMeeting and a Clyde-Cam. It didn't go over too well, largely in part to the fact that at that time, many of us were still using dial-up.

You jokingly used Doc. Doc sets his style up similar to that of a University. Who is to say that 5 years from now, you won't be able to walk into an accredited SL-4 school, have Doc on the big screen, supplemented by accredited instructors on the mat?

Done correctly, it could be pretty cool. Done incorrectly, well, we live in a free-market society, so it just won't last.

BTW, the only name I see posted on this thread thus far is Carol Kaur.

 

[kelly keltner]

I suspect that this mysterious poster is none other than Gary Brewer. If not, then by all means come forward and take credit for your post.

I have posted about distance learning before and my experiences with it. i stand by that and the fact that I don't believe that it works.

Juchnik talks a very good game, but ultimately fails to convince with his changing stories about how he learned Kosho Ryu etc. Now he's trying to make money on the internet doing this nonsense. Learn BJJ over the internet? Don't make me laugh. I've trained that stuff live at the Ralph Gracie Academy and know that there is no way you can learn it except to get on the mats and roll with someone better than you at it. Period. Same with Escrima, Sub Grappling and any decent form of Kenpo out there.

If Kosho Ryu can be learned this way, then it's not worth learning. College courses can be taught this way because they are intellectual, not physical. How many distant courses in PE do you see being taught in college?

Please post your true identity or else go somewhere else and post.

Dan Weston

I'm problably going to kick myself for breaking my own rule and getting into this. First of all what changing stories are you talking about danjo? Second I know the person posting for elessons and it ain't Gary Brewer. You seem to be the one flinging mud and making accusations. Third If someone wants to pay 21 bucks for some exposure to Hanshi Juchnik its pretty cheap compared to the price I'ved paid over the years. If the moderators want to ban someone it should be you.