KOSEN JUDO-Ne WAZA

  • Thread starter Troy Ostapiw/Canada
  • Start date
T

Troy Ostapiw/Canada

Guest
I Have recently been researching Judo and Its relationship to BJJ. I have come across some very interesting research about Kosen Judo, which emphasises ground grappling. It seems that this Kosen has continued to evolve even to this day in Japan.



Kosen contined to develop their Ne-Waza in Judo after Kano
to change the rulesTo prevent prolonged ground matches, even though he realized just how effective the ground game was. Some people have refered to KOSEN JUDO as a schoolboys art. This couldnt be any further from the truth. Kosen has become a highly developed art for ground grappling and has much to offer any JUDOKA or JIU-JITSU practioner.


I would like to get you thought on the following information below.



Jikishin-Ryu Jujutsu was founded by Terada Kanemon Masashige in the mid 1600's. Masashige was born in 1616, and he studied Teishin-Ryu with his father and grandfather who were masters. There were already ground techniques in this art. Later he studied Kito-Ryu, which focuses on throwing from Ibaraki Sensai, and Ryoi Shinto-Ryu with Fukuno Masakatsu. Masashige and following generations developed many techniques that resemble sequences from modern Judo - grapple, throw, ground position, and submission. Jikishin-Ryu actually called its art Judo 168 years before Kano used the term for his art.



Fusen-Ryu Jujutsu was founded by Takeda Motsuge in the early 1800's. Motsuge was born in 1794 in Matsuyama Japan. He studied jujutsu since a young age and by his late teens was considered a shihan and was teaching in Aki. He had studied Nanba Ippo-Ryu from Takahashi Inobei. He also studied Takenouchi, Sekiguchi, Yoshin, Shibukawa, and Yagyu-Ryu during his lifetime. As his style came together at about the same time as the dissolution of the Samurai class, it developed mostly toward unarmed combat. Fusen-Ryu finally became an art that focused almost exclusively on ground fighting.(this may have only been in several branch schools, as certain other branch schools of Fusen-Ryu still exist today, and they do not focus on newaza).



Around the turn of the 20th century, the Fusen-Ryu master Mataemon Tanabe challenged a new jujutsu master to the area - Kano Jigoro. His new jujutsu style had challenged several of the old style Jujutsu schools to contest and had beaten them easily. So Mataemon Tanabe's school fought Kano's school and won every match - not trying to throw, but going right to the ground and doing armlocks, leg locks, chokes, etc. Thus was the real birth of newaza as a science. Kano was so fascinated with the ease his judoka were beaten that he persuaded (and perhaps paid) Tanabe to reveal the core of his technical strategy. Over the next few years, Kano assigned several of his top students to focus exclusively on this newaza. Soon, newaza was "absorbed" as part of the Judo syllabus, and Judo began to spread across the world.



After having several of his top students become newaza experts, Kano thought it a good idea to use this type of Judo in the school system. As the matches ended in submission instead of serious injury, it would be seen more in a sportive way. So in 1914 he organized the All Japan High School championships at Kyoto Imperial University. He called this sportive style Kosen. By 1925 so much emphasis was on newaza - because of its success in contest that Kano had to make some new Judo rules limiting the amount of time the Judoka could stay on the ground. This "Kosen Rule" continued into the 1940's, stating Shiai had to be 70% standing and 30% ground fighting. This led to an early split in the Kodokan Judo movement. Many of those Judoka whom Kano had set to master newaza, had spent time inventing new series of movements, escapes, and submissions. They and their students were now dominating even the Kodokan contests. There was so much negativity with this, that Kano sent many of them abroad to teach Judo elsewhere. He was very aware that they would not be easily defeated no matter where they went, and he also smartly removed the challenge they presented in Japan. Some of the known Kosen Judoka were Yamashita, Hirata, Tomita, Yokoyama and Maeda.



The rules of former Kosen match
At that times,I have heard that Kosen judo match had no time limit,no border line of match mat,no standing fight. Also I have heard that some judo players have continued match more than for about several hours,still when decided the winner. Winner have decided when you or opponent gave up by submission or choke sleepering,or holding for 30 seconds. The winner has recognized only an Ippon.Namely if you won against opponent with Wazaari or Yuko,that was an even draw. But these days almost judo match are ruled by Kodokan rules,nearly international rules.




Difference in kodokan and kosen
I suppose that difference in Kodokan judo and Kosen judo is fighting style,not organization. Kodokan have mainly throwing techniques with standing,Kosen judo have mainly newaza techniques with ground. Recently general judo match is done with kodokan style,that is match start from standing position. Now this is the all over the world.
 

Kenpojujitsu3

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
9
Good stuff. I have an instructional video on Kosen Judo (a little over an hour I believe and in Japenese). Resembles Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and other forms of Ju Jitsu. Doesn't seem as graceful or finesseful by what's shown on this tape however. Alot of the techniques demonstrated appear to have the practitioners exerting a great deal of energy to get them to work. Not exactly my idea of "minimal efort - maximum effect". Think I'll take another look at that tape for a 2nd opinion though.
 
OP
T

Troy Ostapiw/Canada

Guest
I do belive if one has an intrest in grappling then there are many arts to look at, and their all very good. Often movements are taught in the way of form or kata
this often looks rigid, but it is a simple way to teach the basics. I have found that when you are attemppting to apply a technique against a resisting person,
it rarley looks good. This is certainly true when you have two people with very good skills, then it will often come down to endurance, size, conditioning ect.
It will take more energy applying something against a person who is farmiliar with
what you are attempting to do i.e. pinning, joint locks or submissions.

I feel that kosen Judo is not very well know, but it exists, and developed it's self much like BJJ. The human body can only be manipulated so many ways. Since
Kosen focused on ground skill/grappling as did BJJ/GJJ, I belive they both would be very similar.
 

Kenpojujitsu3

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
9
Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:
I do belive if one has an intrest in grappling then there are many arts to look at, and their all very good. Often movements are taught in the way of form or kata this often looks rigid, but it is a simple way to teach the basics. .
Agreed from experience


Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:
I have found that when you are attemppting to apply a technique against a resisting person, it rarley looks good. .
Disagree from experience, proper technique is just that and in grappling proper technique is designed to work with resistance. If a move looks sloppy it's that simple, it's sloppy LOL. That means poor technical ability or just a screw up.


Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:
This is certainly true when you have two people with very good skills, then it will often come down to endurance, size, conditioning ect. It will take more energy applying something against a person who is farmiliar with what you are attempting to do i.e. pinning, joint locks or submissions..
Only when the set-up is bad. The set-up is mental and requires more effort against someone of similar skill because they can probably "read" the set-up. but the actual technique should not require alot of energy or the technique is poor. Poor technique is often backed-up by an advantage in conditioning, size, strength, etc. A proper set-up gives you the right to use proper technique. If a technique has to be forced the set-up wasn't good enough. Grappling set-ups are an art in and of themselves.

Troy Ostapiw/Canada said:
I feel that kosen Judo is not very well know, but it exists, and developed it's self much like BJJ. The human body can only be manipulated so many ways. Since Kosen focused on ground skill/grappling as did BJJ/GJJ, I belive they both would be very similar.
Not necessarily true. Catch wrestling developed much the same way as BJJ but they are VASTLY DIFFERENT. You have to remember WHO did the developing and against what kind of opponents as this has a big say in what goes in and out of a system. Catch wrestlers are dangerous on the ground just like BJJ practitioners. But Catch wrestlers are generally larger and more conditioned and thus have techniques that fit bigger men. The people who developed BJJ were generally very small so their style uses more finesse and flexibility. As I said the techniques I've seen of Kosen Judo on my tape and in my books appear somewhat similar but the people demonstrating are utilizing (in my honest opinion) too much energy for a partner that's providing no resistance. Have you actually seen Kosen Judo in motion yet?

Respectfully,
James
 
OP
T

Troy Ostapiw/Canada

Guest
Originally Posted by Troy Ostapiw/Canada
I have found that when you are attemppting to apply a technique against a resisting person, it rarley looks good. .
Disagree from experience, proper technique is just that and in grappling proper technique is designed to work with resistance. If a move looks sloppy it's that simple, it's sloppy LOL. That means poor technical ability or just a screw up.

( Yes but anybody who has been in real conflict / self-defence understands that it rarley if ever looks good. ( this is a image hollywood has created ). In the training hall, we often build up our egos, but the reality is when adrenaline kicks in and we loose complex motor skills in enviorments with obsticles all around, the chances of pulling off the perfect textbook technique rarley occurs. )



Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Ostapiw/Canada
This is certainly true when you have two people with very good skills, then it will often come down to endurance, size, conditioning ect. It will take more energy applying something against a person who is farmiliar with what you are attempting to do i.e. pinning, joint locks or submissions..

Only when the set-up is bad. The set-up is mental and requires more effort against someone of similar skill because they can probably "read" the set-up. but the actual technique should not require alot of energy or the technique is poor. Poor technique is often backed-up by an advantage in conditioning, size, strength, etc. A proper set-up gives you the right to use proper technique. If a technique has to be forced the set-up wasn't good enough. Grappling set-ups are an art in and of themselves.

Only when the set-up is bad. ( Agree)
Yes and a skilled person can read the set ups. Size and conditioning is always a factor. Consider a individual on PCP, Have you ever attempted to controll a person that is completley out of control? Theory is good, but it does not always end up the way we would like it to. This is Murphy's law, and it is a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Ostapiw/Canada
I feel that kosen Judo is not very well know, but it exists, and developed it's self much like BJJ. The human body can only be manipulated so many ways. Since Kosen focused on ground skill/grappling as did BJJ/GJJ, I belive they both would be very similar.

Not necessarily true. Catch wrestling developed much the same way as BJJ but they are VASTLY DIFFERENT. You have to remember WHO did the developing and against what kind of opponents as this has a big say in what goes in and out of a system. Catch wrestlers are dangerous on the ground just like BJJ practitioners. But Catch wrestlers are generally larger and more conditioned and thus have techniques that fit bigger men. The people who developed BJJ were generally very small so their style uses more finesse and flexibility. As I said the techniques I've seen of Kosen Judo on my tape and in my books appear somewhat similar but the people demonstrating are utilizing (in my honest opinion) too much energy for a partner that's providing no resistance. Have you actually seen Kosen Judo in motion yet?

A person will decide in the end what work best for them. If you are a bigger person certain concepts will work better for you. If you are a smaller person you will have to find the concepts/ that work best for you. There are only so many was to manipulate the human body, until a people grow a third arm or a , 4th joint in there arm, the concepts of manipulation will be very much the same

I have not seen KOSEN in action........respectfully Troy
 

Kenpojujitsu3

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 5, 2005
Messages
1,221
Reaction score
9
(1) On the issue of looking good what are you talking about hollywood image? Good technique (form in motion) has nothing to do with something looking pretty which is what it seems like your getting at. "looking good" is when the technique is executed properly. That's it. Not when the technique is "pleasing to the eye" which doesn't mean anything. You either have proper form or you don't. Proper form is trained as is your response to adrenal dump, environmental awareness, target assessment and combat stress. If you don't train it you don't have it plain and simple. Loss of fine motor control as well as gross motor control is directly related to stress management. Again either you train it or you don't have it. Bruce Lee stresses proper conditioning as well as proper form in all of his books that I own and all the footage that I have. But he stresses proper form in your techniques many times more than he stresses conditioning. Form lasts as long as you train it, but your body can't keep it's conditioning forever. Age will take your conditioning away regardless of your training. In the end everything boils down to how do you train what works for you.

(2) If you can't set a move up you can't do the move right. Controlling people who are out of control? No control technique is worth beans if you can't use it on a resisting person that's thw whole point. I hope you have experienced controlling someone on PCP to throw that out there (as so many people do to try to prove a point) because I have. Doing private security in medical centers and psyche wards will have you controlling alot of "very resistant" individuals. If a person is on controlled substances technique won't help much because techniques depend on two things, pain and damage. Both of these don't register to a person on controlled substances. You literally have to destroy all the ligaments of joint to get it to stop functioning on them. You have to make so that the joint does not work on a mechanical/physiological level. So on a 'PCP user' form in technique serves no value unless you're trying to cripple them and you need the proper form to execute the crippling hold regardless of your physical attributes. Technique is there to give the person with less conditioning, strength, stamina, speed, size etc. a chance against someone with a physical advantage(s). If someone needs these advantages to effect a maneuver then manuever isn't being done right, there is no excuse. It's just lack of a technical aspect. Attributes are to help technique not stand in as surrogate. Your technical level combined with your conditioning is what gives you a chance when Murphy's law shows up on the scene.

(3) True only so many ways to manipulate a human body. The BASIC concepts of manipulation cannot change. However the application of the concepts, strategies and tactics is what makes all arts different. If there are only so many ways to manipulate a body how does mankind have thousands of martial arts, combat forms and combat sciences? Application, strategy and tactics relating to fundamental concepts. Fundamental concepts of all grappling arts . SPACE, WEIGHT, PUSH, PULL, POSITION. Yet we have Free-Style Wrestling, Greco Roman Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, Ju Jitsu, Judo, Aikido, Aiki-Jitsu, Chin Na, Dumog, Brazilian Ju Jitsu, etc. Something to think about. Are al arts more similar than different or more different than similar? All depends on who you ask.

Take Care and good luck in your training. Minimal Effort-Maximum Result the goal in all worthwhile combat training.
 
Top