Korean vs. Japanese

[MBuzzy]

Does anyone know the differences, if they exist between a Korean sword and a Japanese Sword?

 

[Dave Leverich]

In the Katana style? I did see an article a few years back in BBM that stated the Korean version was typically 4 inches longer, but I haven't seen that statistic anywhere else.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

From what I've seen, there are subtle differences. I did however find an article that addresses it in detail. Summary follows:

Korean swords = 1 handed use, Japanese swords = 2 handed use
They are worn differently, and have different accessories
Japanese swords had soul while Korean swords were tools.
Blades and hilts were assembled differently
Blade curvatures were different
Blade cross sections are different


Look for section IV for a much more indepth explaination.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/koreanarticle.htm

 

[Dave Leverich]

Nice info, thanks Bob!
The Kumdo ones were the ones I'd seen, and given how new Kumdo is as it's own art (aka, not just Kendo) It doesn't surprise me that those swords are pretty much identical. Are you looking at the swords pre-occupation then? Or is that on the Kumdo ones? Reason I ask is I've seen much two-handed use in Kumdo, but haven't seen any traditional Korean swordword.

 

[Sukerkin]

This is a bit of a ticklish issue for some as the fact is that the 'modern' Korean sword arts blade is a copy of the Japanese one.

I don't want to open this whole weeping sore again so that's all I'll say.

 

[MBuzzy]

From what I've seen, there are subtle differences. I did however find an article that addresses it in detail. Summary follows:

Korean swords = 1 handed use, Japanese swords = 2 handed use
They are worn differently, and have different accessories
Japanese swords had soul while Korean swords were tools.
Blades and hilts were assembled differently
Blade curvatures were different
Blade cross sections are different


Look for section IV for a much more indepth explaination.
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/koreanarticle.htm

In Haidong Gumdo we use two handed swords....although I had no idea how varied the history of Korean sword arts were!

This is a bit of a ticklish issue for some as the fact is that the 'modern' Korean sword arts blade is a copy of the Japanese one.

I don't want to open this whole weeping sore again so that's all I'll say.

I don't mind opening the wound, since I don't know much about it!

I have noticed that, the swords that we use in Haidong Gumdo look almost the same as Japanese, although I have noticed that there seems to be different distinctions. Koreans refer to 2, 3, and 6 edged blades, different blades used for cutting paper, straw, fruit, and bamboo (bamboo being the one that cuts bone just as easily). I have only SEEN Japanese Katanas, but without distinction, although I don't know the terminology, so I could be way off. Do similar things exist in Japanese swords?

 

[Cryozombie]

Japanese swords had soul

Is this really true? I'm no expert on Japan and the Japanese, but I was always led to believe this was a romanticized notion based on the writings of Hagakure, (I think) which I have been led to believe were, again, romanticized notions of Samurai Honor and beliefs.

Foreigners have a caricatural view of Japan and BUDO. Many have discovered the samurai and the Bushido trough the American novel « shogun ». What most don't know is that the book « Bushido » was written by Inazo NITOBE (a university student) in 1899, meaning 32 years after the disappearance of the last samurai, moreover, the writings in that book were based on an epic novel made of 11 volumes (Hagakure Kikigaki) written in memory of warriors some 150 years earlier, by the monk Yamamoto Tsunetomo. That book extols, through its stories, the idea that « the way of the warrior is death ». Before being a monk, Yamamoto Tsunetomo served the Nabeshima clan in the writings/account department, and so never had any real experience of combat, and was neither a martial arts master. As you can see, neither the book « BUSHIDO, the way of the samurai », neither it's inspiration « HAGAKURE KIKIGAKI, notes collected in the leaves' shadow », were written by warriors, but by dreaming and nostalgic intellectuals during a period of peace and so, have nothing in common with the essence of BUDO.

Anyone?

 

[Sukerkin]

I can't go into any great detail tonight as we're expecting guests to dinner any timne soon and I have to get to work on the futile attempt to make myself presentable .

However, yes it is broadly true that, like the Ninja, the general idea of the Samurai that people hold is very far from the core of the actuality. The 'Bushido Code' never really existed as such until formalised in the late 19th century as noted above - it bears as much resemblence to historical samurai as King Arthurs knights did to our western nobility i.e. a romantacised ideal.

As to the various blade geometries of the katana, that's a subject that spans quite a few centuries - I could try an work up a basic typology but I think that a quick search of the Net would find something useful enough for discussion.

 

[wesley]

well... looking at history, it only makes sense that blade's change over time.. as new methods of creating blades, new metals, and tactic's change that the blade shape would change with it..

I study hwarang do and we have a little bit of sword usage in our art.. mostly we use small weapons like knives.. but we do touch on swords, and for the most part we just use the katana..

i do know for a fact that there are MANY different styles of Tangs, and several different styles of points...

as for the swords having souls... it is speculated that they believed this.. i think that, it's more of a personal thing.. much like marines naming their rifles..
..they dont belive that it is Alive, but they do put trust in their weapons and begin to feel that it is apart of them.

 

[MBuzzy]

So the real "root" of the question here - if someone buys a Katana, is it the same thing as a buying a Jin Gum? Or should someone look to buy a Korean sword from a Korean manufacturer?

 

[Sukerkin]

Well, I would say that if the katana is suitable for the art then there would be no reason not to use it.

But I think that the Korean blades have evolved somewhat from the intial adoption of Japanese inspiration and, if it is a KSA being studied, then using a sword for which the art was made would be better.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I can't go into any great detail tonight as we're expecting guests to dinner any timne soon and I have to get to work on the futile attempt to make myself presentable .

However, yes it is broadly true that, like the Ninja, the general idea of the Samurai that people hold is very far from the core of the actuality. The 'Bushido Code' never really existed as such until formalised in the late 19th century as noted above - it bears as much resemblence to historical samurai as King Arthurs knights did to our western nobility i.e. a romantacised ideal.

As to the various blade geometries of the katana, that's a subject that spans quite a few centuries - I could try an work up a basic typology but I think that a quick search of the Net would find something useful enough for discussion.

Nice post Sukerkin. Very simply we often (humans) try to make certain people and periods out to be better or more virtuous than they were. Definately this is the case with both Samurai and the Knights of Europe as well as almost any ruling class around the world.

 

[cdunn]

So the real "root" of the question here - if someone buys a Katana, is it the same thing as a buying a Jin Gum? Or should someone look to buy a Korean sword from a Korean manufacturer?

For practical purposes, most shinken will suffice for the practice of Haidong Gumdo. The differences are slim. However, you should be aware that the World Haidong Gumdo Federation, as well as many of its associates, have chosen to insist that only swords from approved forges may be used at tests, seminars, and other events, as I believe there was a rash of people being injured due to swords breaking.

As always, consult your sabomnim before you spend serious money, and end up with something you're not permitted to bring into the dojang.

 

[howard]

...the World Haidong Gumdo Federation, as well as many of its associates, have chosen to insist that only swords from approved forges may be used at tests, seminars, and other events, as I believe there was a rash of people being injured due to swords breaking.

Hi Chris,

Would you be able to tell us who the approved forges are? Are they all in Korea?

I train in an unfamiliar Korean sword art, and am always interested to learn more about Korean swordsmanship in general.

As a general principle, I can certainly understand that position. IMO, a qualified instructor should inspect every sword used in his school. You never know when somebody might walk in with a wallhanger...

 

[cdunn]

Hi Chris,

Would you be able to tell us who the approved forges are? Are they all in Korea?

I train in an unfamiliar Korean sword art, and am always interested to learn more about Korean swordsmanship in general.

As a general principle, I can certainly understand that position. IMO, a qualified instructor should inspect every sword used in his school. You never know when somebody might walk in with a wallhanger...

I'm afraid I don't know who makes them, but I do believe they are all Korean, and there are some funny laws about buying blades in Korea. The practical effect is that outside Korea, you basically have to buy your swords through the Federation. Fortunately, the value is there for them, but it's still aggrivating.

 

[MBuzzy]

Has anything been made public regarding the Federation's sales? Is there a website to look at - or is it basically just you tell your instructor you want a sword and you get whatever is delivered to you?

 

[cdunn]

Has anything been made public regarding the Federation's sales? Is there a website to look at - or is it basically just you tell your instructor you want a sword and you get whatever is delivered to you?

I really don't know - The US site has been down for some time, I don't speak Korean, and there's not much on any of the other English language sites. I know that there are a variety of swords available, and you do get a selection, but I think that first hand sales are only made through Federation associates.

Really, though, you need to consult with your instructor before you order any blade you plan on using in the dojang. He may let you use any jingum that passes a basic safety inspection, or he may insist on Federation supplied steel. The Federation will insist on using a Federation sword at seminars and tests, but those are a tiny fraction of your training, and it does not have to be your personal blade you use at these tests. I know we have a half a dozen folks who have cut bamboo for testing using our sabomnim's sword.

 

[howard]

Hi Chris, thanks for your reply.

...there are some funny laws about buying blades in Korea.

There certainly seem to be. I could tell you a couple of stories about the difficulty of getting a Korean sword out of Korea. Seems that the authorities are very sensitive to the possibility of people trying to smuggle antiques out of the country.

If we choose to, we can get hand-forged blades made for us by a long-time swordsmith who the head of our kwan knows. They're very nice blades, and are pretty much indistinguishable from a Japanese sword, except that generally they have less curvature (what the Japanese call sori). But, it's not a requirement in our style, we're pretty open about what type of blade students use. As long as they're safe, especially if we're cutting targets.

At any rate, there aren't many of us. Most guys stick strictly to Hapkido.

 

[MBuzzy]

cdunn - Thanks for the info! I don't intent to purchase anything without my instructor anyway, honestly I was just curious about locations and what to look at. Price ranges as well. I will be ready for a Kah Gum soon, so I was curious about price ranges. Soon after I will need to start thinking about a bamboo sword as well.

The question actually stemmed from researching forges and blades...they're all Japanese. I will also be teaching Gumdo some day, so I like to have as wide of a knowledge base as I can.

 

[cdunn]

cdunn - Thanks for the info! I don't intent to purchase anything without my instructor anyway, honestly I was just curious about locations and what to look at. Price ranges as well. I will be ready for a Kah Gum soon, so I was curious about price ranges. Soon after I will need to start thinking about a bamboo sword as well.

The question actually stemmed from researching forges and blades...they're all Japanese. I will also be teaching Gumdo some day, so I like to have as wide of a knowledge base as I can.

For federation stuff, my kagum was around 125 USD, maybe 150. Jingum ran from 1000 USD to 2200 USD, but the price may have changed with the fall of the dollar. Jukdo are about the same price as mokgum. Jukdo are practically disposable, too - they get torn up pretty fast.

And, sadly, most of the swords that you'll see out there aren't even Japanese in origin, but rather, Chinese copies of the Japanese design. These guys are the only Korean exporting forge I've seen so far. Getting swords out of Japan / Korea is kind of rough legally.