Knife work from a modernist approach

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If we are sort of on disarms, i am curious how keeping your finger out of the trigger guad would impact the practicality of a pistol/firearm disarm. I wonder if the time taken under stress to put your finger in and fire before the person does their disarm on you would matter. I dont recall if the testing videos start with the finger in or out of the guard. And i honestly dont know doctrine for that one because as soon as you mention something thats agaisnt the literal coopers code of gun safety you get 2,000 deibles of complaints your way.



So that's your answer for anyone who can't carry? Very informative. I'm sure the UK members of this forum will be very well served with your astute observation of "just go get a gun". As for my personal anecdotal experience, as funny as you find it, its even funnier on this side of the fence knowing I'm right.
To be fair, thats what drove me to annoyance in the ramsey video on self defence. You cant even be armed everywhere (even in the U.S), there are valid legal moral and practical blocks to being armed. This is not counting maybe it malfunctioned, or you ran out of ammunition or lost it. Ramsey also lives in a place witha legal block on firearms for self defence usage (as far as i know, not versed on chinese law in that matter)

Also, unarmed skills are needed to facilitate you drawing your weapon and to also balance the playing field in stopping somone from drawing theirs if you arent armed. Or diffrent wording, enabling your usage of a weapon and disabiling theirs. I get the feeling maybe some peopel who enthisise firearms dont understand that you can be in punching distance and need to draw theirs, and its more likely self defence wise to be pretty close to you.

That was really ranty and maybe not germane to any point but hey ho.
 

Shatteredzen

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If we are sort of on disarms, i am curious how keeping your finger out of the trigger guad would impact the practicality of a pistol/firearm disarm. I wonder if the time taken under stress to put your finger in and fire before the person does their disarm on you would matter. I dont recall if the testing videos start with the finger in or out of the guard. And i honestly dont know doctrine for that one because as soon as you mention something thats agaisnt the literal coopers code of gun safety you get 2,000 deibles of complaints your way.




To be fair, thats what drove me to annoyance in the ramsey video on self defence. You cant even be armed everywhere (even in the U.S), there are valid legal moral and practical blocks to being armed. This is not counting maybe it malfunctioned, or you ran out of ammunition or lost it. Ramsey also lives in a place witha legal block on firearms for self defence usage (as far as i know, not versed on chinese law in that matter)

Also, unarmed skills are needed to facilitate you drawing your weapon and to also balance the playing field in stopping somone from drawing theirs if you arent armed. Or diffrent wording, enabling your usage of a weapon and disabiling theirs. I get the feeling maybe some peopel who enthisise firearms dont understand that you can be in punching distance and need to draw theirs, and its more likely self defence wise to be pretty close to you.

That was really ranty and maybe not germane to any point but hey ho.
Totally, plus most people aren't going to even understand their local use of force laws or have the requisite martial arts skill to protect that weapon if they are in close quarters. Most of police defensive tactics is split between arrest procedure and weapon retention for a reason.

A guy in my town just went to jail for defending his pet duck from a neighbors dog by firing a gun in the air, now he is in jail, lost his gun, his duck still got hurt and he's on the news throughout the state getting jokes made about him for something a rolled up newspaper could have handled. The point of that story is that firearm carry requires a whole other set of unique skills as well, its not just draw, point and fire.

Also, I think the duck story is funny. PS, the duck made it with a broken leg.
 

lklawson

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The problem is that a lot of people don't really grasp what that Tueller drill was all about and somehow think it shows the superiority of knives over guns at close range.

It really has much more to do with the element of surprise and your reaction time when being attacked. If the defender had a sheathed knife instead of a gun, would he be any better off? And suppose you switched the attacker's weapon to a gun? How well could a defender with a sheathed knife defend himself against a surprise attack by an attacker 21 feet away unloading on him with a firearm?

...Of course you know this stuff Kirk. It's your area of expertise. But it seems like a lot of casual posters here don't think this stuff through.
You are correct, of course.

When Tueller publicized his results, he was trying to snap LEO out of the idea that just because they have a gun doesn't mean they're invincible and that, most importantly, a suspect within a given distance (~21' for him) was still very much a deadly threat.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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angelariz

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The only reliable knife defence is a gun licence
That is not the subject here. If you want to shoot, then shoot. If you want to carry a firearm, that is excellent if you get trained and keep training in combat shooting. However, this topic is about a knife. In 48 or so states i can carry my knife. No permit or legal ramifications. Plus a knife has some advantages over a firearm that i won't get into online. But yeah, you could use Gun Fu.
 
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angelariz

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I am honestly confused at the martial arts community/culture. It seems to be filled with double standards and duality and uncertainty.

A great but rambly example. If we take the question "should i practise at home". Now you will get a mixture of yes's and no's or ask the teacher etc. But for the sake of this, the teacher doesnt micromanage you to "grant you permission" to practise it at home so its your own judgement call. (it is most of the time in reality as well) If you state with any certainty that you know how to do this enough to practie this at home you would probbly be met by accusations of arrogance. It just boggles my mind a lot, i think its one of the more fractured communities out there. (granted each system and style has its own collectively, so its a diverse as there are groups of people doing it or individuals doing it) In other fields you don tend to have arguments about the basics, say gravity, physicists dont argue if it exists or not anymore, yet something comprable for martial arts would be say punching, people argue a lot about how to punch and the like.


The only thing i can really suggest is, lay out crtieria, look for ones that meet your criteria the best, if none do, learn how to do your crtieria and do it yourself. And hope you have the resources and time to do it.
I dont look to communities to test what I do and I dont look at trends to make my judgment. I have teachers. Teachers that set a standard and people in that group have to achieve and exceed the standards. All of this verbose arguing is pointless. These guys often go to their Shaolin Kempo Holy Temple and tell everyone else how ignorant they are.
Hahaha

It doesnt affect the rest of us. I've put in work. My training and my ability, and now age have all shaped how I absorb and retain material and skill sets.

I know people want to come online and pretend they are the wisest toughest of us all and will teach everyone the truth.

The rest of us are training and working on preserving what we have learned that works for us.
Not what we think works. But what actually works.
 
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angelariz

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I agree, it's as if people do not understand, that people who created systems... rarely had a teacher themselves.

People tend to forget that folks can figure things out.
Bruce Lee had many teachers.
IP Man,, WSL, Joon Rhee, Judo Gene, many others.
Guro Dan had many teachers over the decades too many to list.

So as it pertains to JKD or Edged Weapons, the teachers were there from the beginning when one man hit another with a stone and learned how well using a rock works in self defense. Hahaha 😈
 

RagingBull

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I think the best knife techniques i have seen were from escrima/Kali. not an expert on it as i have only experienced Latosa escrima but definetly the best systems out there for me at least.
 

Martial D

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That is not the subject here. If you want to shoot, then shoot. If you want to carry a firearm, that is excellent if you get trained and keep training in combat shooting. However, this topic is about a knife. In 48 or so states i can carry my knife. No permit or legal ramifications. Plus a knife has some advantages over a firearm that i won't get into online. But yeah, you could use Gun Fu.
Sure. You can bring a knife against a knife, or try some movie-fu empty hand disarm or whatever.

And probably walk away bleeding if you walk away at all.
 

RagingBull

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Sure. You can bring a knife against a knife, or try some movie-fu empty hand disarm or whatever.

And probably walk away bleeding if you walk away at all.
some use macheties now. you have no chance but atleast in escrims/Kali you train with them too & a knife so maybe..maybe you can learn something that might save your ***. however i agree with you.
 
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angelariz

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We can calm down the need to make definitive statements. This is all just conversation at the end of the day.
How deadly is a gun? Should I expect to get shot every time i get shot at?
I know for a fact that the few times I was shot at, I was never hit. Luck? Fate? Skill ? Or great exit plan? It doesn't matter.
You may get cut. You may get shot.

What system/method do you train to avoid getting cut in an assault?
 

oneoftheherd80

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I understand the need for accepting the possibility of getting cut when confronting a knife. The question is how much possibility of that is there? You state it is fairly low. I tend to think the opposite, but then, I don't have the statistics or practical experience in a real knife fight, so I'll approach this with an open mind.

The answer, no doubt, is situation dependent. Please consider the following situations as to risk of the defender getting cut.

Are we talking one or both untrained or trained? Do both or just the attacker have a knife? Is the attacker actually attacking with the knife, or just threatening with it during a robbery? Other variables? If one is in a knife fight and no one gets cut, what the heck happens??? or does just the attacker get cut?

Knowing the answers to these questions should allow us to better evaluate risk, the meaning of the statistics you refer to, and better understand your position as well. I would like to face a high risk situation with as much understanding as possible, so have a sincere interest in regards to these various scenarios and why you think the risk factor is low. In the meantime, I'm going to think it's as dangerous as hell.

I have never been in a knife fight and hope I never am. But I have trained in several knife attack defenses. None of them contemplate that I would be cut. Realistically I would be foolish not expect that as a possibility. That was when I was younger and in better shape. Now I am not. But to fully answer your question, some of the defenses would have injured, sometimes seriously, some would have probably killed.
 

geezer

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I think the best knife techniques i have seen were from escrima/Kali. not an expert on it as i have only experienced Latosa escrima but definetly the best systems out there for me at least.
You know, I don't think Latosa Escrima is a system ....anymore.

Way back in the 80s and 90s it was a "system" ....complete with curriculum and ranking system. Called PMAS (Philippine Martial Arts Society) Escrima. I was actually certified to teach that.

The EWTO guys with Bill Newman integrated a lot of HEMA stuff and have a system with a ranked curriculum, but one that has strayed a long way from Rene's stuff.

And I guess Emin still teaches Latosa Escrima Concepts, broken down into his own EBMAS curriculum and ranking system... but I haven't had any contact with EBMAS in over a decade. My loss.... He's a super talented guy.

But it strikes me that Rene is more and more about core concepts that can translate into any practical fighting art, fighting sport (boxing or MMA), or self-defense.

BTW ...Rene Latosa was my first Escrima Coach. Now I'm not exactly talented ...far from it. But If anything I do actually works, it's because of what I got from him. :)
 

Instructor

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I have a conceal carry permit and should carry all the time but I don't. I've never found a combination of firearm/holster that is as fast and comfortable as simply slipping my Benchmade Nakamura into the little watch pocket of my jeans. Day to day times i've needed my gun... so far = zero. Day to day times I've needed my knife (for doing routine knife things) = beyond counting. I know the gun is better for defense and I should carry it but I seldom do.
 
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