Kicking defense techniques?

[Mark L]

The kempo I study has a multitude of techniques for defending against all manner of punches, grabs, and weapons attacks. We do not have any prearranged techniques that we practice specifically designed to defend and counter against kicking attacks. This is something we practice quite a bit when sparring, but it is ad hoc.

My interpretation of the variety of techniques presented for a type of attack are to give the MA a repertoire of options: closing or opening the opponent, forward/backward/lateral movements, hard block/soft block, plus the myriad of retaliatory strikes and kicks. I've seen some AK curricula that contain a few kick techniques, I'm wondering how many of your kempo systems address this?

 

[MJS]

If I may ask...what kind of Kenpo do you do??

Mike

 

[Kempojujutsu]

We address kicks as followed. Most of the time by moving into the kick & blocking with a knee. Knee should go into the shin of the kicking leg. This techniques is also done in Muay Thai. There was video clip on here while back, of a guy doing that. He broke the other guys femer. Pretty nasty.

If you have time or can read the attack, kick the incoming leg as in a stop hit.

Lastly just move out of the way, then counter attack.

 

[Mark L]

If I may ask...what kind of Kenpo do you do??

Mike

Probably should have included that, huh?

That should be an easy question to answer, but it isn't. My teacher is independent, his teacher roamed a bit. At various times he was affiliated with Villari, Cerio, Parker, and Kuoha. I'm not particularly interested in the politics of those situations, so I haven't asked. We practice the numbered combinations to 33 for shodan, animal punch techniques, 1-5 pinan & 1-6 kata (subtley different than what I learned in SK 20 years ago), Statue of the Crane, Sai/Bo/Nunchaku forms, and the Kara-Ho forms and line techniques. Plus all the JJ, BJJ, and pressure point stuff.

 

[MJS]

Probably should have included that, huh?

That should be an easy question to answer, but it isn't. My teacher is independent, his teacher roamed a bit. At various times he was affiliated with Villari, Cerio, Parker, and Kuoha. I'm not particularly interested in the politics of those situations, so I haven't asked. We practice the numbered combinations to 33 for shodan, animal punch techniques, 1-5 pinan & 1-6 kata (subtley different than what I learned in SK 20 years ago), Statue of the Crane, Sai/Bo/Nunchaku forms, and the Kara-Ho forms and line techniques. Plus all the JJ, BJJ, and pressure point stuff.

Ahh...sounds like a good amount of Villari, with some other stuff added in to round it out. Yeah, I hear ya...I came from a Villari background. When I first started, I really didnt know about anything else. Then my inst. changed to the EPAK system, and my eyes were definately opened...real wide!!! In Villari, 98% of the material is right punch attacks! Well, what about the clubs, knife, grabs, kicks, etc?? At my school, that stuff was required at test time, but you had to be at the class to get it. If you missed it, you had to get the info. from the inst. so you could have it for the test. With Paker, obviously, it offers a much wider SD base, and IMO, its 10 times better!!!

As for the katas...yup, same ones here!! As for the locks, PP, and BJJ stuff...I've gotten the majority of that from outside of my Kenpo training.

As for your initial question....kicking defense....using a downward block, while moving off on an angle, just moving altogether, or using the leg block/stop kick are all good options. In addition, beating him to the kick with a punch is also possible. Keep in mind that the power kick is gonna come from the rear leg, therefore, he (your opp.) needs to adjust his weight to his front leg.

Hope that this was a help.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Force the opponent into wider/deeper stances somehow, it slows down the kick and usually increases the telegraphing. Attacking/trapping the lower body will either break his balance/restrict leg use or make the legs so sore/damaged that kicking isn't possible or effective.

Throw 'punches in bunches' (theoretically with any strike really) to keep them on the defense mentally as well as physically.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Pay attention to zones of sanctury as well as jamming. That is, it is a lot easier not to be there than to try to block. :asian:

 

[Mark L]

Thanks for the replies Gents. Maybe I need to clarify, I know how to block kicks, been doing it for decades. The question is do you teach specific kick defense techniques as part of the curriculum to demonstrate particular principles in the same manner that you teach specific punch/grab/gun/knife/etc. defense techniques to demonstrate particular principles? I'm questioning whether this is a hole in the training. Not our ability to execute defenses, just the manner in which we learn those defenses (sparring vs. technique practice).

Ahh...sounds like a good amount of Villari, with some other stuff added in to round it out. Yeah, I hear ya...I came from a Villari background. When I first started, I really didnt know about anything else. Then my inst. changed to the EPAK system, and my eyes were definately opened...real wide!!! In Villari, 98% of the material is right punch attacks! Well, what about the clubs, knife, grabs, kicks, etc?? At my school, that stuff was required at test time, but you had to be at the class to get it. If you missed it, you had to get the info. from the inst. so you could have it for the test. With Paker, obviously, it offers a much wider SD base, and IMO, its 10 times better!!!

I don't mean to sound too defensive, I do come from a Villari background also (not since 1984 though). Our practice isn't nearly as sanitized in terms of attack variety as I saw then. Yes, my eyes widened as well. The 'added in' stuff (Cerio/Kuoha/Parker) dominates the curriculum, particularly in the intermediate and advanced ranks.

 

[loki09789]

My base is in Arnis/Kenpo blend so this might be different to some Kenpo only approaches.

I treat kick defenses (formal ones, not just standard blocking practice) like I treat grappeling skills - have a handful of standards that you can do in your sleep, really well and let the 'variations' on those standards be based on drilling, experimentation and discovery by the students during training.

I don't think it is a hole in my curriculum as much as it is something that is fundamentals driven, so it doesn't seem to get the attention/complexity some other parts of the program might get.

Personally, if I have to consider dealing with kicks on the street, agressive and decisive techiniques (and a healthy dose of sprint training ) usually neutralize the kick before it really can become a problem.

If the self defense turns into a fight because of duration, then banging on his legs with low kicks and shin scrapers will put him, hopefully, on the mental defense and reduce his desire to throw his legs around to get beat on.

 

[MJS]

Thanks for the replies Gents. Maybe I need to clarify, I know how to block kicks, been doing it for decades. The question is do you teach specific kick defense techniques as part of the curriculum to demonstrate particular principles in the same manner that you teach specific punch/grab/gun/knife/etc. defense techniques to demonstrate particular principles? I'm questioning whether this is a hole in the training. Not our ability to execute defenses, just the manner in which we learn those defenses (sparring vs. technique practice).

To answer your question...Yes!! We do in the EPAK material, have techs. deisgned to defend kicks just like we have ones to defend punches, grabs, weapons, etc. IMO, if its not in there or its not covered, then its a hole. Now, I'm not saying that its possible to be prepared to every single thing you're gonna come across but there are ways to prep. yourself. For example. Some arts address things in more detail than others. Take BJJ. Sure there is some grappling in Kenpo, but its not going to be addressed as fully as if you went to a BJJ school to have your questions addressed. I've always had the attitude that if you like something, and its lacking in your given art, and your inst. can't help you, then why not go outside and find those answers??

I don't mean to sound too defensive, I do come from a Villari background also (not since 1984 though). Our practice isn't nearly as sanitized in terms of attack variety as I saw then. Yes, my eyes widened as well. The 'added in' stuff (Cerio/Kuoha/Parker) dominates the curriculum, particularly in the intermediate and advanced ranks.

IMO, theres nothing wrong with adding something in. Think of it as a spice to make the main meal taste just a little better!

Mike

 

[Brian Jones]

Mark:

It seems everyone is muddying up your original question. American kenpo has defenses for the front kick, side kick roundhouse kick. we have techniques that work on the outside, and inside of the kick. I am not posting the names simply because they might not mean anything to you.

Hope this helps,

Brian Jones

 

[Touch Of Death]

Mark:

It seems everyone is muddying up your original question. American kenpo has defenses for the front kick, side kick roundhouse kick. we have techniques that work on the outside, and inside of the kick. I am not posting the names simply because they might not mean anything to you.

Hope this helps,

Brian Jones

Ok here is precisly what you do, call it what ever you want but...:
control distance
minimize your targets
Anchor your elbows and buttox
get out of the line of attack
Guage
angle of deviation
move from point of origin
choose a counter attack that doesn't violate point of origin
Choose the best angle of: execution, entry, contact, defelection, disturbance
use counter balance
check
use body momentum
depth of penatration
get directional harmony
good body alignment
good back up mass
contour
good angle of cancelation
give him no angle of return
Just for starters.
Sean :asian:

 

[Mark L]

...if you like something, and its lacking in your given art, and your inst. can't help you, then why not go outside and find those answers??

Mike,
This is exactly what I'm thinking. The stuff is there, but there is no rigor applied to it. I'm interested in developing that rigor for my own benefit, and if my teacher agrees with my approach, the benefit of others in the school. I wanted to find out if others do this to see how it was received.

Mark:

It seems everyone is muddying up your original question. American kenpo has defenses for the front kick, side kick roundhouse kick. we have techniques that work on the outside, and inside of the kick. I am not posting the names simply because they might not mean anything to you.

Brian,
Thanks, I've seen written descriptions of a dozen or so EPAK techniques specific to kicks. I got them from someones website, I don't remember where. Interesting stuff, the thing that reinforces what I'm thinking here is that the listed techniques to 1st black was around 175, so a very small percentage are dedicated to kicks. Perhaps reflective of what's expected on the street?

Ok here is precisly what you do, call it what ever you want but...:
control distance
minimize your targets
Anchor your elbows and buttox
get out of the line of attack
Guage
angle of deviation
move from point of origin
choose a counter attack that doesn't violate point of origin
Choose the best angle of: execution, entry, contact, defelection, disturbance
use counter balance
check
use body momentum
depth of penatration
get directional harmony
good body alignment
good back up mass
contour
good angle of cancelation
give him no angle of return
Just for starters.
Sean

Sean,
Which technique do you practice to acheive all this? Is it just one method of execution regardless of the attack? Or do you apply these concepts to a variety of techniques? It seems you're making my point for me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean,
Which technique do you practice to acheive all this? Is it just one method of execution regardless of the attack? Or do you apply these concepts to a variety of techniques? It seems you're making my point for me.

This would be the one thing you do against a kick in any given technique. :asian:
Sean

 

[DavidCC]

Ok here is precisly what you do, call it what ever you want but...:
control distance
minimize your targets
Anchor your elbows and buttox
get out of the line of attack
Guage
angle of deviation
move from point of origin
choose a counter attack that doesn't violate point of origin
Choose the best angle of: execution, entry, contact, defelection, disturbance
use counter balance
check
use body momentum
depth of penatration
get directional harmony
good body alignment
good back up mass
contour
good angle of cancelation
give him no angle of return
Just for starters.
Sean :asian:

Excellent List! I am printing that off...

 

[Han-Mi]

I train in limited kenpo with a friend of my instructor, I guess you could say he's my friend as well now. Anyway, I know that kenpo is a force to be reckoned with from experience. However, I am a practitioner of tradition TKD with a little bit of everything else mixed in. (We are very eclectic.)

My suggestion for learning kick defense, as a kenpo artist, is to train with a TKD artist. Kicking is our art, therefore we have more experience in attacking with and defending against kicks. I find that many good schools will allow you to train with them for a few days, if you can provide some type of knowledge in return. If you can't find anyone to train with, get a video. I find that just being told what to do is not nearly as good as experience or at least seeing. Though that list really was a good list.

 

[Kenpomachine]

My suggestion for learning kick defense, as a kenpo artist, is to train with a TKD artist. Kicking is our art, therefore we have more experience in attacking with and defending against kicks.

In my personal experience, a kenpo kick defense is enough to train/spar/fight with a TKD artist. They had more problems with my techniques than I had with theirs, and I'm not an outstanding kenpoist.

Take into account that the most damaging kicks are low kicks, as in thai/kick boxing, not the high kicks found in TKD. So that's what I'd rather learn to defend, as it's easier they caught you by surprise than high kicks.