Kenpo Sets

[Seabrook]

Here's a few questions to get some discussion rolling.

Does your kenpo school teach all of the sets (including the first and second of each set)?

If yes, which set is your favorite and why?
If no, how come?


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[KenpoEMT]

When I was active in Kenpo, the school taught both #1 and #2 of all
of the sets.

My favorite was Coordination set 2. It's a blast to perform, and it
gets your heart rate up fairly quickly. I used to do it 5 or so times
in a row just to build up a good sweat before I started working on
other material.

Nowadays, I question the overall usefulness of the Kenpo Sets. The sets
were likened to encyclopedias of motion. Encyclopedias only provide a limited amount of information, and while useful for students in elementary school, college students rarely consult them (preferring more specialized texts).

In my opinion, the Sets provide a good introduction to possible movements, but do not
contribute much more to the overall skill of the individual practitioner. I think that
they are important to learn for the beginner, but (like the above comparison to education) not so important to maintain at the more advanced levels.

Just my opinion; Let the flaming begin!:flame:

 

[TheEdge883]

Nowadays, I question the overall usefulness of the Kenpo Sets. The sets
were likened to encyclopedias of motion.

Encyclopedias only provide a limited amount of information, and while useful for students in elementary school, college students rarely consult them (preferring more specialized texts).

In my opinion, the Sets provide a good introduction to possible movements, but do notcontribute much more to the overall skill of the individual practitioner. I think that they are important to learn for the beginner, but (like the above comparison to education) not so important to maintain at the more advanced levels.

Just my opinion; Let the flaming begin!:flame:

Ima have to disagree with you there. I never thought the sets were the encyclopedia of kenpo. The forms are that. The sets isolate and expand on movement within the forms. Because of this, they do greatly contribute to the skill of the practitioner.

Encyclopedias only provide a limited amount of information, and while useful for students in elementary school, college students rarely consult them (preferring more specialized texts).

Are you saying that senior ranks have no need to keep practicing the sets? I remember in Larry Tatum's Sets video, he says he still works on his sets daily, just to keep himself fresh. I don't want to have to assume, you know what that does, but I can guess that most other seniors also do keep working on the sets.

 

[Kenpobuff]

Our system teaches all 1st and 2nd sets...even the 3rd sets.

I too like Coordination Set two and dislike Finger Set two.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Favorite Sets -- Finger Set 1/Knife Set and Two Man Set/Form

Least Favorite Sets -- Staff Set and Club Set

 

[Thesemindz]

Our school comes from a combined Tracy/Parker lineage and teaches a system which is primarily similar to the Epak system in techniques, but uses a different organization.

We teach

Stance 1 (different from epak)
Blocking 1 (star block)
Elbow 1
Kicking 1 (different from epak)
Sparring 1
Stance 2 (different from epak)
Blocking 2 (star block plus doubles and opposites)
Coordination 1
Kicking 2 (different from epak)
Sparring 2
Breakfall 1 (new set incorporating rolls, breakfalls, and stand up techniques)
Finger 1
Sparring 3
Coordination 2
Striking 1
Stance 3 (different from epak)
Finger 2
Versus (two man set from SOCK)
Kicking 3 (different from epak)
Trapping 1 (new set incorporating 15 different arm traps, tweaks, and breaks)
Staff 1
Spear 1
Blocking 3 (blocking 2 plus a variety of parries)
Finger 3

Several of the sets not specifically described as being different from epak may still be different, I'm not an expert on specifically how things are taught in the epak system. We also teach an informal club set which is basically short 1 with clubs in your hands. As far as my favorite, that's hard because I'm not good with favorites and I also tend to be a bit of a kenpo devotee, but I like the coordination sets for a good hard workout, stance 2 and finger 2 because they have alot of moving around the room, of course the weapons sets and versus set are always fun, gosh, I guess I'm just not going to have an easy answer.

At our school we also teach the forms
Short 1
Long 1
Short 2
Long 2
Short 3
Long 3
Leopard Set
Short 4
Long 4
Mass Attacks
Short 5
Long 5
Tiger Set
Short 6
Crane Set
Long 6
Form 7


I feel that the sets are of vital importance. They are another piece of the puzzle. Basics are taught individually, and then their practice is layered with techniques, sets, and forms. An inward elbow is taught as a basic to be practiced in the air and on pads or the bag. Then the students is taught elbow set, where they practice the elbow strike from a different stance, a different point of origin, with a different follow up strike. Than the elbow is practiced in techniques again with all those different aspects, both in the air and on the body. Then the elbow is practiced in a form, with a different mental component, as part of a much larger piece. Then the student returns to the simple basic inward elbow and sees it in a whole new light. Yes, this is important for beginner students to develop their skill with, and understanding of, the basics. But this is also important for advanced students, not just to continue to sharpen their skills, but also because the advanced student begins to see lessons hidden within the sets. For instance, elbow set one teaches the student to purposefuly open and close the hand when striking with the arm. In this set the student strikes with a different part of the body than the hand itself. However, this lesson is repeated in Sparring set, only this time the student strikes with the hand they are opening and closing. Some would say that this kind of layering of material is tedious and wasteful. I argue that this is exactly the kind of layered, progressive approach which leads to a mastery which goes beyond mere proficiency in self-defense. Self defense is relatively easy to teach. Elbow, knee, hit the opponent where it hurts, ie. throat, solar plexus, knee, groin, eyes. So what. If that is all we are teaching, our students don't need us, and we don't need martial arts. I'm teaching something far deeper than mere self defense, although I am a huge proponent of self defense and focus on it heavily in our classes. I'm trying to make my students into martial artists with a deep and abiding respect and understanding for the study of motion and it's many complex applications.

I work the sets all the time. In my black belt classes, we often warm up by running every set and form in the system. A practitioner is only as good as his or her basics, and the sets group similar basics in a format which makes them easy to practice as unique skill sets, as well as providing an opportunity to compare and contrast the differences in the similarities and the similarities in the differences within those basics. I also come into the studio and check my neutral bow several times a week to make sure it stays sharp. Just because I've learned it doesn't mean I've mastered it, and just because I've mastered it doesn't mean I'm done with it.


-Rob

 

[KenpoEMT]

Ima have to disagree with you there. I never thought the sets were the encyclopedia of kenpo. The forms are that. The sets isolate and expand on movement within the forms. Because of this, they do greatly contribute to the skill of the practitioner.

Actually, you might be right there. I think I meant to say "appendices" of motion and not encyclopedias.

...but I can guess that most other seniors also do keep working on the sets.

I respect your opinion. I am not sure what your definition of 'seniors' is (1st, 2nd, 3rd gen or just anyone higher ranked...), but here are a couple of things that 2 individuals with alot more experience than I possess have to say about this issue:
[From thread: Techniques on Both Sides]

Would you be surprised to find out that Parker didn't even create most of them? You can also throw out most of the "2" sets as well for the same reason, also created by someone else, and not Parker.

However I never saw Mr. Parker ever do any of the #2 Sets (nor has "Senior" or 1st generation students I have spoken with...

Anyway neither have I seen any of the "seniors" endorse OR teach them. Hell most don't even teach all of the others. And as for us "ancients" that are senior to all the seniors, most of us don't do any of that new fangled motion based stuff.

Everything Parker allowed into his many sytems had some validty on some level at some time or it wouldn't be there. The value of anything depends on who, what, when, where, how, and most importantly "why?" As long as those questions are positively answered for the individual, then it doesn't matter. Some do and teach things I wouldn't dream of, and vice versa. I do my thing and share. You do your thing and share. Everyone will choose what they like. Most will choose the road of least resistance or most popular. No harm, no foul. If some people would spend as much time on their own knowledge and skill as they do monitoring others, everyone would be better off.

 

[hammer]

When I was active in Kenpo, the school taught both #1 and #2 of all
of the sets.

My favorite was Coordination set 2. It's a blast to perform, and it
gets your heart rate up fairly quickly. I used to do it 5 or so times
in a row just to build up a good sweat before I started working on
other material.

Nowadays, I question the overall usefulness of the Kenpo Sets. The sets
were likened to encyclopedias of motion. Encyclopedias only provide a limited amount of information, and while useful for students in elementary school, college students rarely consult them (preferring more specialized texts).

In my opinion, the Sets provide a good introduction to possible movements, but do not
contribute much more to the overall skill of the individual practitioner. I think that
they are important to learn for the beginner, but (like the above comparison to education) not so important to maintain at the more advanced levels.

Just my opinion; Let the flaming begin!:flame:

Theband legion
I enjoyed reading you contributions on the thread title ellipise.

From my understanding Sets are refered to as Appendices. Sets are both offensive and defensive,movements that are peformed liken to a mini form.
Sets , teach me how to articulate my basic's, So that they are clear and clean, in their execution, whist focsing on my movements being exact,

Basics, in any system are you bread an butter,
like anything if you dont use it, you lose it.( A touch of aussie slang).

they are important to learn for the beginner, but (like the above comparison to education) not so important to maintain at the more advanced levels.

Perhaps, Yet if your are to teach them, you must be able to do them.
After All they are only Basics.??

Cheers
Hammer

 

[KenpoEMT]

Theband legion
I enjoyed reading you contributions on the thread title ellipise.

Hey, thanks! Glad that I made some sense to someone.

From my understanding Sets are refered to as Appendices.

Yeah, I caught myself on that earlier. Oh well, silly mistake for me to make.

Sets are both offensive and defensive,movements that are peformed liken to a mini form.
Sets , teach me how to articulate my basic's, So that they are clear and clean, in their execution, whist focsing on my movements being exact,

Basics, in any system are you bread an butter,
like anything if you dont use it, you lose it.( A touch of aussie slang).


Perhaps, Yet if your are to teach them, you must be able to do them.
After All they are only Basics.??

Now that's a great response.
Simply for arguments sake, the sets are not the only place that we find basics. Without a firm grasp of basics an instructor would be unable to teach even the simplest technique (i.e. Sword and Hammer). The 'basics' portion of our training is certainly covered in training techniques and forms. I don't believe that the Kenpo Sets actually add anything unique to our Art.

Great post, Sir!

 

[KenpoEMT]

Actually, you know, my comments have been WAY off topic. Sorry about that.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

If we liken sets to a books appendix. Think how often YOU use the appendix in a book and that will give you AN IDEA of how useful sets may be to you.

 

[hammer]

If we liken sets to a books appendix. Think how often YOU use the appendix in a book and that will give you AN IDEA of how useful sets may be to you.

The term of appendix
(Sets) Appendix of motion, as I understand it, was Mr parkers term for chracterizing that part of the system. Much like the forms 1-2 are refered to the dictionary of motion, froms 3-6 were given the term of encyclopedia of motion.

There are many more experienced people here on Martial talk that may be able to share with us as for why Mr parker Choose to use such lables.

Either way, the sets are just another Resourse, that you have availble to you or to your students, to assist the with learning partictular aspects, Whether you choose to use them. practice or teach them. I surpose its up to you .

Cheers
HAMMER

 

[Brother John]

If we liken sets to a books appendix. Think how often YOU use the appendix in a book and that will give you AN IDEA of how useful sets may be to you.

That's usually in proportion to how in-depth you want to study the given elements w/in the text. If you find a certain tid-bit of knowledge in a text and want to look into it further, the appendices would be the place to turn.

Your Brother
John

 

[pete]

Here's a few questions to get some discussion rolling.

Does your kenpo school teach all of the sets (including the first and second of each set)?

If yes, which set is your favorite and why?
If no, how come?

here are the one's that i know and my personal reasons for practicing them, beyond the obvious: repetition of isolated basics to develop those specific skills~


stance set - basic foundation: 1st thing a student should learn to practice; passively avoiding getting hit (get out 'the way)
star block - actively avoid getting hit (move it out of your way)
striking set - how to hit with closed fist weapons, and what you can do if you dont succeed
kick set - using your feet as weapons, single-weightedness, balance in motion, learn to guage distance
finger set - develop formations of finger weapons, and to change for appropriate targets
coord set 1 - whole body unity using linear motion
coord set 2 - whole body unity using circular motion
stance set 2 - internal energy for rooting, balance, power and awareness
finger set 2 - activating the finger weapons learned in 1 using power generated from the feet
two man set - all the above in reaction to a live opponent
staff set 1 - extending your energy beyond your fingertips, augmenting your sphere of influence; maintaining your balance with an external object

 

[Seabrook]

Our system teaches all 1st and 2nd sets...even the 3rd sets.

The third sets?????

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I do not, most generally, do the sets. Only a few were in circulation when I started kenpo, and many a lethal kenpoista was made before the sets were spread throughout the cirriculum, universally.

I did learn some of the early sets. I picked up some others as a warehoused guest at various studios, but eventually drop them back out. I've known too many great kenpoists to believe that excellence is unobtainable without them. With only so many hours in a day, I'd rather spend an hour cranking through some SD-techs & sparring drills, then trying to remember the steppnig sequence for Kick 1. But that's my own limitation.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Kenpobuff]

I think I come from a similar system as "Thesemindz" in as much as we are taught almost all the same sets and forms he listed above. I haven't learned them all yet but they make for a good warm up as it is already.

For example Mr. Seabrook;

Brown II, Sparring set 3
1st Black, Club set 3
2nd Black, Stance set 3 & Kicking set 3
4th Black, Finger set 3

Does anyone else teach the "Leopard Set (form)?

Steve

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I think I come from a similar system as "Thesemindz" in as much as we are taught almost all the same sets and forms he listed above. I haven't learned them all yet but they make for a good warm up as it is already.

For example Mr. Seabrook;

Brown II, Sparring set 3
1st Black, Club set 3
2nd Black, Stance set 3 & Kicking set 3
4th Black, Finger set 3

Does anyone else teach the "Leopard Set (form)?

Steve

Which system of Kenpo is this?

 

[nlkenpo]

A bit puzzled on the 3rd sets too....

But about the other sets (1st and 2nd) the following. We do 'm all, but not as often as we should :whip:.

I can follow the argument that the sets do not add as much now as they did in the beginning when I learned them. However, Because they added a lot when I learned them, they will probably add a lot to new students, so I will have to keep myself up-to-date with them.

There's a few sets that IMHO should not be named sets but forms.

Staf set
Two men set

I've always been taught that a set is a list of basics, while a form is a pre-designed fight, mostly against an imaginary opponent. In both staf set and two men set, there's not just a list of basics, but there are actul techniques. That's why IMHO these are in fact not sets, but forms.

Amongst the actual sets I like finger strike set nr. 2 a lot because there's a very nice flow in the movements. I hate kicking set nr. 2 because I look like a moron doing the back chicken kicks .

Marcel

 

[RaysOnAwaV]

Sounds like they are talking about Tracy kenpo. I started my kenpo training with a Tracy black belt. I only reached an orange belt but the names of those sets sound familiar.


Ray