Kata question

[Kittan Bachika]

Been watching a lot of Kyokushinkai Karate videos and it is quite impressive. I know that Kyokushinkai has kata but what I have noticed is that other strikes and maybe a throw, I do not see any kata or any bunkai.

My question to all of you whether you practice Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon or an art that is forms based, have you been able to apply the techniques in fighting? Tournament or otherwise.

 

[K-man]

IMO kata provides a template to develop you fighting skills. Most of the techniques in kata are designed for close fighting and grappling including locks, holds, chokes, throws etc.
As such the kata or forms are very important.

Tournaments are totally different as they are mainly conducted at long range and are stopped as soon as someone is deemed to have delivered an effective strike. The same principles for techniques contained in the kata apply but you only get to use a fraction of the information.

MMA is different in that despite starting at distance, each competitor is trying to enter. In this situation the elements of the kata are relevent.

 

[Blade96]

Been watching a lot of Kyokushinkai Karate videos and it is quite impressive. I know that Kyokushinkai has kata but what I have noticed is that other strikes and maybe a throw, I do not see any kata or any bunkai.

My question to all of you whether you practice Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon or an art that is forms based, have you been able to apply the techniques in fighting? Tournament or otherwise.

I havent done kumite in a tournament yet, but most of my karate buddies have. From talking to them and from watching kumite in tournaments myself, I would have to say yes you can apply them in a kumite but it is a fraction as was said.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

IMO kata provides a template to develop you fighting skills. Most of the techniques in kata are designed for close fighting and grappling including locks, holds, chokes, throws etc.
As such the kata or forms are very important.

Tournaments are totally different as they are mainly conducted at long range and are stopped as soon as someone is deemed to have delivered an effective strike. The same principles for techniques contained in the kata apply but you only get to use a fraction of the information.

MMA is different in that despite starting at distance, each competitor is trying to enter. In this situation the elements of the kata are relevent.

So someone like Machida who has a Shotokan background has probably used these techniques in his fights? I know in his fight with Tito Ortiz he did some tripping technique from Shotokan that was pretty effective.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

In my opinion, yes they can be applied. Even something as simple as a prop sidekick, I used to lack the balance and speed to really land a powerful sidekick from the front leg but then I learnt a form which had a prop side kick on both legs. To get the form down I would practice it repeatedly for a long period and years later I would say my front leg sidekick is my strongest and fastest tech in sparring (it works everytime) and it was through form that I got it to that standard. Many other techs I use regularly I got good at through having them as part of my forms. For me, forms are just a way of getting students to practice certain techs over and over again without actually saying "go home and practice this move a hundred times a night", instead just give them a form to get down and they will practice the tech a hundred times.

 

[searcher]

I cannot comment on Kyokushin specifically, but I have a basic knowledge of the Ashihara kata(a Kyokushin offshoot). Their kata were designed form techniques that are used for knockdown. The Kyokushin guys I know, all use kata as exercise and not for application. IMO, kata teaches you coordination through repitition and allows you to work on breathing, stance, and linking of techniques.

I have wondered if the reason why so many MMA guys have been having trouble with Machida is from his application of kata moves in his fights? What do you all think? I feel this follows the basic theme of the thread.

 

[72ronin]

There was a time when i thought, "What is the use of oi zuki in zenkutsu dachi, or commiting so much time to gedan barai - oi zuki in zenkutsu dachi etc to muscle memory"

What you see here, in old school Shotokan and modern day UFC... is the very same thing, and i think that speaks volumes for Kata..

Interpret it how you may, You may see it as entry with gyaku zuki and completion of takedown with gedan barai, or perhaps simply a variation of oi zuki.
Very common techniques to Shotokan Kata, in fact, i would go as far as to say, Kata IS the Heart of Karate, when you look beyond the surface of a technique.

Correct me if im wrong, but i believe that Mas Oyama stated that
"If you want to know Kyokushin, look to Tensho Kata"

 

[K-man]

There was a time when i thought, "What is the use of oi zuki in zenkutsu dachi, or commiting so much time to gedan barai - oi zuki in zenkutsu dachi etc to muscle memory"

What you see here, in old school Shotokan and modern day UFC... is the very same thing, and i think that speaks volumes for Kata..

Interpret it how you may, You may see it as entry with gyaku zuki and completion of takedown with gedan barai, or perhaps simply a variation of oi zuki.
Very common techniques to Shotokan Kata, in fact, i would go as far as to say, Kata IS the Heart of Karate, when you look beyond the surface of a technique.

Correct me if im wrong, but i believe that Mas Oyama stated that
"If you want to know Kyokushin, look to Tensho Kata"

Good example of the use of zenkutsu dachi with gedan barai to take down in the first instance and zenkutsu dachi transitioning into shiko dachi for the takedown in the MMA.

 

[K-man]

So someone like Machida who has a Shotokan background has probably used these techniques in his fights? I know in his fight with Tito Ortiz he did some tripping technique from Shotokan that was pretty effective.

I had a look at some of Machida's tapes but couldn't find much to get excited about wrt kata or even karate techniques. However I did find a tape of one of our local guys, nor retired, that I have had a seminar with.

He is Kyokushin Karate here in Melbourne. There's a lot of karate in his moves.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I had a look at some of Machida's tapes but couldn't find much to get excited about wrt kata or even karate techniques. However I did find a tape of one of our local guys, nor retired, that I have had a seminar with.

He is Kyokushin Karate here in Melbourne. There's a lot of karate in his moves.

Nice vid, and he's an aussie.

 

[72ronin]

Hey K-Man,
Can you remember back to when.. i think it was just before Greco took off to K-1, he and Stan had a bloody fight or two, it got pretty rough lol
I always admired Greco's strength and technique. Good to hear he's not yet retired. Maybe he'll fight another k-1 or something?

cheers

 

[searcher]

Nice vid, and he's an aussie.

I agree on the nice vid.


And we won't hold it against him that he is an Aussie.

 

[K-man]

Hey K-Man,
Can you remember back to when.. i think it was just before Greco took off to K-1, he and Stan had a bloody fight or two, it got pretty rough lol
I always admired Greco's strength and technique. Good to hear he's not yet retired. Maybe he'll fight another k-1 or something?

cheers

Ouch ... my typing. I had 'nor' instead of 'now'. Sam is still in really good shape and turns up in seminars from time to time, but he has given away the professional fights as far as I'm aware. But for the memories .. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5f6ix_sam-greco-vs-stan-longinidis_sport
No love lost in this one.

 

[K-man]

Just to get back to the OP.

My question to all of you whether you practice Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon or an art that is forms based, have you been able to apply the techniques in fighting? Tournament or otherwise.

You have to keep in mind karate (and hence kata) was for self defence against ruffians and thugs, not trained fighters. In the professional fights the opponent is much more skilled in defence so it is more difficult to enter. So for tournament, the elements are there but not as clear. For self defence, its all there.

 

[MJS]

Been watching a lot of Kyokushinkai Karate videos and it is quite impressive. I know that Kyokushinkai has kata but what I have noticed is that other strikes and maybe a throw, I do not see any kata or any bunkai.

My question to all of you whether you practice Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon or an art that is forms based, have you been able to apply the techniques in fighting? Tournament or otherwise.

IMO, its rare that you'll see a SD tech or part of a kata done during sparring or fighting. Is it possible that you could apply a small part, ie: a particular block, some footwork, etc.? Sure.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

The Kyokushin guys I know, all use kata as exercise and not for application.

Can you clarify that? When you mean by exercise as in keeping in shape?

 

[MJS]

Can you clarify that? When you mean by exercise as in keeping in shape?

I'm not searcher, but the way I read this, would be in the way of cardio. For example...there have been many times when I've done every kata that I know, 1 right after the next. Needless to say, anyone who isn't breathing hard, and feeling a bit tired, IMO, isn't working hard enough.

 

[K-man]

I'm not searcher, but the way I read this, would be in the way of cardio. For example...there have been many times when I've done every kata that I know, 1 right after the next. Needless to say, anyone who isn't breathing hard, and feeling a bit tired, IMO, isn't working hard enough.

That's the cue to say, "OK, now we are going to go through that kata again, three times, as fast as you can". ;-)

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm not searcher, but the way I read this, would be in the way of cardio. For example...there have been many times when I've done every kata that I know, 1 right after the next. Needless to say, anyone who isn't breathing hard, and feeling a bit tired, IMO, isn't working hard enough.

"A bit tired"? After doing all the patterns you know? I'm dead when I do that!

GM Choi, Jung Hwa has often said that by the time you're done with Chon-Ji (the white belt pattern in Taekwon-Do) you should be winded because of the power you're putting into the techniques. And seeing him demonstrate you can see what he means ... lots of power in all his techniques!

Of course, I usually think that I'm tired because I need more work on my cardio! :lol:

Pax,

Chris

 

[searcher]

Can you clarify that? When you mean by exercise as in keeping in shape?

Yes. They use it as a cardio style of training. No different than performing bagwork, bunkai(basics), or any other type of drills. Many of them don't even place emphasis on it. They only work on them so they can test.

As has been stated, if you can go through all of the kata you know and you are not winded, then you are not going hard enough. Also, on the strength and power side of things, if you punch hard enough and keep tension in your muscles throughout the kata, you can also build strength.


Hope this helps.