Just a Little Query

[Steel Tiger]

While doing some reading the other day I was reminded of something and thought I would pose a question to you guys who are properly into Western martial arts.

How far into the past do your studies take you?
I mean, I was reading about the Roman expeditions into Dacia where they encountered a weapon called the falx.

I know there are recreation societies of various types about and there is some excellent work being done by experimental archaeologists. But what I want to know is whether or not anyone looks at Classical fighting arts in a similar way to those of middle-ages and medieval periods?

 

[Sukerkin]

That is an interesting question, ST.

I know some Dark Age re-enactors and have to say that I have not been overly impressed by the background research done with regard to combat styles. It all seemed a bit SCA i.e. unreal by dint of modern day Health and Safety.

The furthest back, accurate, weapons work I've seen is on the 1066 invasion of Britain by the Normans. The solidity of the research into axe techniques, particularly against kite shields was pretty convincing.

Beyond that I can't say {other than to wish that the Saxon wall had not broken up in pursuit of the fleeing co-predecessors of the cheese-munching-surrender-monkeys :lol:}.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I know some Dark Age re-enactors and have to say that I have not been overly impressed by the background research done with regard to combat styles. It all seemed a bit SCA i.e. unreal by dint of modern day Health and Safety.

That is something I have noticed as well.

The furthest back, accurate, weapons work I've seen is on the 1066 invasion of Britain by the Normans. The solidity of the research into axe techniques, particularly against kite shields was pretty convincing.

I have seen some this work on TV and there was, when I was at school, a very good travelling group that demonstrated 11th to 13th century weapon work. One thing that stood out about this group is they did some Classical recreation as well - specifically demonstrating the effectiveness of close order fighting like the Romans, how well a composite linen cuirass will stop a spear, and things like that.

It wasn't really about how and why weapons were used as they were, just "this is what happened" sort of stuff. Still, very exciting for a 12 year old.

 

[Sukerkin]

I'll bet that was great to see at that age - I can just imagine the internal "Cool!" that went on . I felt the same when the army came round to our school and I got to sit at all the positions in a Scimitar light tank .

 

[lklawson]

While doing some reading the other day I was reminded of something and thought I would pose a question to you guys who are properly into Western martial arts.

How far into the past do your studies take you?

Late Middle Ages/Early Renaissance is the earliest any of my personal studies go. Quarterstaff sources don't go back deep into the Middle Ages and I tend to hover around Silver or so for source. I dabble a bit in spear work by Fiore which goes back further but I'm not one of the truly serious Fiore guys. Bob Charon is the go-to guy for that stuff.

Most of my studies hover around between the late 17th C. up through the end of the 19th and some very early 20th C. focusing on Bowie, Military Saber, Irish shillelagh, Classic Pugilism and the like. Very well documented source material for that. Some of it, I've made available to the community at large.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
---
free western martial arts manuals: http://stores.lulu.com/lawson
Cumann Bhata Daytong: http://cbd.atspace.com

 

[lklawson]

That is an interesting question, ST.

I know some Dark Age re-enactors and have to say that I have not been overly impressed by the background research done with regard to combat styles.

Re-enactors or western martial artists? Some of them are both but not all re-enactors are actual martial artists nor vice versa.

It all seemed a bit SCA i.e. unreal by dint of modern day Health and Safety.

You mean sorta like Kendo armour?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
---
free western martial arts manals: http://stores.lulu.com/lawson
Cumann Bhata Dayton: http://cbd.atspace.com

 

[Sukerkin]

Re-enactors or western martial artists? Some of them are both but not all re-enactors are actual martial artists nor vice versa.

Defintely re-enactors rather than WMA students.

You mean sorta like Kendo armour?

What I meant was more to do with the way that the actual techniques are limited and changed for the sake of health and safety. The kit can be quite authentic in appearance but the 'fighting art' is it's own creation.

I didn't intend it to be a barbed stab (yeah, weapon arts pun attack !) at re-enacting, I've done a little Japanese stuff myself, but rather a statement that the weapons-craft cannot be considered accurate/historical because of the (sensible) restrictions placed upon it.

Hajimashite

Mark

 

[Tez3]

Sukerkin get thee to the Royal Armouries at Leeds! wonderful place!
On the subject of health & safety, my instructor was doing a tile break (200 tiles in a couple of minutes, showy but an effective fund raiser) for charity recently, where we we going to do it demanded a full risk assesment done first. I can imagine a full scale 'battle' would be a nightmare to do one for lol!

 

[Sukerkin]

Ah yes, Leeds Armouries is indeed a glorious place. We went the other year when they were doing a Japanese special event (touring exhibition about Lord Tokugawa).

I'm afraid I did myself no honour as I was muttering under my breath now and again about some of the 'interpreters' accuracy :O. Poor chaps having some eejut in the crowd making comments about their performance on both JSA and museum professional levels. I didn't know I was doing it either until my missus told me to stop it .

 

[lklawson]

Defintely re-enactors rather than WMA students.

Ah. Well, that does make a difference.

What I meant was more to do with the way that the actual techniques are limited and changed for the sake of health and safety. The kit can be quite authentic in appearance but the 'fighting art' is it's own creation.

I didn't intend it to be a barbed stab (yeah, weapon arts pun attack !) at re-enacting, I've done a little Japanese stuff myself, but rather a statement that the weapons-craft cannot be considered accurate/historical because of the (sensible) restrictions placed upon it.

Hajimashite

Mark

Oh, I'm not insulted, don't worry about that.

Most of the western martial artists that I know make some concessions to safety but none a dramatic as you seem to imply were happening here. Seriously. For instance, most of the guys who do Longsword (two-handed sword in the German or Italian tradition usually) usually end up sparring with steel or aluminum and frequently don't have very many techniques which are prohibited. Their safety kit tends to the "very armoured up" though.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk