Japanese Tai Chi

[luigi_m_]

I enjoy doing Tai Chi, and just wondered if the Japanese had any similar methods?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not that I know of, but I suppose you could always do a kata slowly.

 

[pstarr]

No, I can't say that I know of any Japanese martial art that is performed like Taiji-

 

[KOROHO]

Yes they do, it's called Aikido.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yes they do, it's called Aikido.

Well..... not exactly.... but possibly closer than say Judo, Karate, Jujitsu, etc.

 

[KOROHO]

I should have expanded and related more.

When I first started Aikido (Yoshinkan), I learned an exercise called Shumatsu Dosa. I commented one time how it was just like Taichi.
I got a dirty look from a Japanese teacher who said "Aikido is Japanese. Taichi is Chinese". No comment about them being different. Shorly after I was asked by a Chinese man if I trained in Taichi, I said "no. Aikido". He said "It's the same thing".

When you look at the basic principles they are much more similar than different. The problem with Taichi is that most schools do not teach the applications. If they did, more people would see the similarities. I teach Taichi and Aikido. If I taught the fighting applications of Taichi, my Taichi students would have to learn to breakfall.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I should have expanded and related more.

When I first started Aikido (Yoshinkan), I learned an exercise called Shumatsu Dosa. I commented one time how it was just like Taichi.
I got a dirty look from a Japanese teacher who said "Aikido is Japanese. Taichi is Chinese". No comment about them being different. Shorly after I was asked by a Chinese man if I trained in Taichi, I said "no. Aikido". He said "It's the same thing".

When you look at the basic principles they are much more similar than different. The problem with Taichi is that most schools do not teach the applications. If they did, more people would see the similarities. I teach Taichi and Aikido. If I taught the fighting applications of Taichi, my Taichi students would have to learn to breakfall.

Since you put it that way I would have to agree, although I did not know about the Shumatsu Dosa, but I never did Aikido.

I use to do a lot of sparing with different styles (back when woolly mammoths walked the earth) and one of those styles I had the chance to spare was Aikido and I must say now that I think about it I can see the similarities. However form my experience the applications are a little different and sometimes more than a little different.

I have spared some very good aikido people and I have spared some very bad ones as well. But all in all I would say that there are more Aikido people that know applications than Tai Chi in the world today.

Way back then I was doing Yang and Chen as well as Xingyi and a bit of Bagua. For the last 12 years, for all intensive purposes I have studied mainly Yang style. And now that my brain seems to be working, my Yang style teacher did elude to the fact there were similarities once. He was very interested in getting an old tape of Ueshiba, he never did find it.

 

[KOROHO]

I started teaching Aikido after we moved back to Fort Wayne. I also teach Karate and a variety of sword arts and in my spare time I teach Koroho.

The Senior Center lost thier Taichi teacher so they asked me if I could take over. I had some background in Taichi from going to clinics and I also had the Shumatsu Dosa. So I took the challenge and taught what I know. Very shortly after I met a Taichi teacher who teaches a style called Ba Men or 8 Gates. It's a very simple form with 8 movements and ideal for seniors.

I was able to get certified as an instructor very quickly because I already understood chi/ki, the breathing, etc. I am not teaching the old folks the applications, but it is just chock full of Aikido.

You see the yielding, blending, joint locking. Obvious techniques are Kote Gaieshi, Hitting Elbow Throw, Side Entering Throw, Circular Throw and I am sure I can find a lot more.

We have Shomatsu Dosa 1 and 2. I sure if you just saw us doing this, your first question would be "What form of Taichi is this?"

 

[Xue Sheng]

I started teaching Aikido after we moved back to Fort Wayne. I also teach Karate and a variety of sword arts and in my spare time I teach Koroho.

The Senior Center lost thier Taichi teacher so they asked me if I could take over. I had some background in Taichi from going to clinics and I also had the Shumatsu Dosa. So I took the challenge and taught what I know. Very shortly after I met a Taichi teacher who teaches a style called Ba Men or 8 Gates. It's a very simple form with 8 movements and ideal for seniors.

I was able to get certified as an instructor very quickly because I already understood chi/ki, the breathing, etc. I am not teaching the old folks the applications, but it is just chock full of Aikido.

You see the yielding, blending, joint locking. Obvious techniques are Kote Gaieshi, Hitting Elbow Throw, Side Entering Throw, Circular Throw and I am sure I can find a lot more.

We have Shomatsu Dosa 1 and 2. I sure if you just saw us doing this, your first question would be "What form of Taichi is this?"

I shall have to see if I can find someone in my area to show me what it looks like. But a good Aikido school in my area is almost as hard to find as a good Tai Chi school these days. Some I sparred with came from one school and that teacher left the area a few years ago. That was too bad because he was very good and a student of one of Ueshiba's students, the one that teaches or taught in NYC.

If I may ask a question about aikido as compared to Tai Chi, I did notice that if I stayed relaxed some, not all, Aikido people I spared had a problem doing much of anything, except bringing me way to close and giving me an advantage, you should never let a Tai Chi person get to close. Could this be because they did not train Shomatsu Dosa?

With that question asked I would like to add a couple threw me around like a rage doll. Generally these were the people from the person's school I previously mentioned.

 

[KOROHO]

If I may ask a question about aikido as compared to Tai Chi, I did notice that if I stayed relaxed some, not all, Aikido people I spared had a problem doing much of anything, except bringing me way to close and giving me an advantage, you should never let a Tai Chi person get to close. Could this be because they did not train Shomatsu Dosa?

Shumatsu Dosa is essentially a kata. We practice it at a slow pace, paying attention to stances, coordination of breath and motion, proper body alignment and precise technique. Then, we start to break it down and look at various applications of the movements.

I doubt that an Aikidoka's difficulty is sparring with you was because of a lack of Shumatsu Dosa training. Most likely it was because you were not giving the energy needed for them to do the techniques.

My experience in Aikido is that a lot of people get frustrated if you don't attack them properly. A good Aikidoka will be able to deal with various types of attacks and perhaps even manipulate you to make you attack in way that is in thier favor.

A properly trained Taichi practicioner can generate a lot of force and is very dangerous up close.

Back to Aikido and the "proper attack":

When I first started in Karate, my first teacher had training in Judo and Taijutsu. He always taught us to be mindful of getting thrown and taught us to not over extend a kick or punch. He said doing so sets you up to be thrown. We were instructed to never fully extend unless we hit the target. When I started Aikido, I had the habit of not extending a punch that did not hit. It was held back if there was no connection - in other words: no follow through. This frustrated my Aikido training partners because they needed the energy from the follow through to make the throw work. I never doubted that my teacher could kick my butt - if I didn't think he could I likely would not have trained there. Even some of the seniors there would take me. But many got highly frustrated by my instinct to withold the enery if there was no connection. I doubt those students would have success in a match against a well trained karateka.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When I first started in Karate, my first teacher had training in Judo and Taijutsu. He always taught us to be mindful of getting thrown and taught us to not over extend a kick or punch. He said doing so sets you up to be thrown. We were instructed to never fully extend unless we hit the target. When I started Aikido, I had the habit of not extending a punch that did not hit. It was held back if there was no connection - in other words: no follow through. This frustrated my Aikido training partners because they needed the energy from the follow through to make the throw work. I never doubted that my teacher could kick my butt - if I didn't think he could I likely would not have trained there. Even some of the seniors there would take me. But many got highly frustrated by my instinct to withold the enery if there was no connection. I doubt those students would have success in a match against a well trained karateka.

Thank You, this has been very interesting and informative.

And I too have frustrated a few over the years do to being, as I was once told, to relaxed. I was at a seminar once that had a Jujitsu person demonstrating a technique; he decided to use me as the test dummy, since I was the biggest there. He told me, as his technique failed, I was too relaxed and I should tense up more. I politely bowed said thank you and left.

 

[FortMark]

I agree that this has been fascinating. In the years I have practiced a variety of martial arts, I continure to be amazed at the fundamental similarities between them (mostly in the end result) as opposed to the difference (mostly in approaches taken). I had a teacher who once described the journey as being "spokes on a wheel" with different points on a rim leading to a central hub.

I am a little disturbed at the lack of diversity ion martial arts training available however, in that schools and styles (say shotokan vs. tang soo do; hung gar vs. pa kua) tend to teach a mutual exclusivity in their approach to the downplay of the result. The one thing I like about the approach of Aikido and Tai Chi is that both emphasize the the journey and the reason for taking it in the first place and the importance of continuing the journey for as long as one wants.

Now the one thing I would love to find is an instructor (class or private) for either Tai Chi or Aikido in my area so I can pursue these in my advancing middle age and decriptude. If you know of someone in or around Fort Wayne, IN, USA, please let me know.

Nice chatting.

 

[searcher]

I feel that it is like comparing a grapefruit and an orange. While they are botha citrus they are very different in flavour.

 

[KOROHO]

Just coming back to reiterate some things that I was asked about in an email.

The main differences I see between Aikido and Taichi are in the way the arts are taught and practiced. The principles are essentially the same as are the techniques.

Aikido is generally taught with parteners (***** and uke in our school) who take turns applying techniques on each other while the principles are being taught. The students learn ukemi (break falls) from the start.

Taichi is generally practiced solo and the stress is placed on developing chi
and learning the basic principles. More advanced students start to learn the applications later on. The beginning students are not spending time learning the breakfalls and they are also not on the receiving end of the techniques, which Aikido relies on to help learn them.

What I found in both styles is that there is beginning teachings and more advanced teachings. That is, some teaching is held back for more advanced students. But by practicing Taichi, I am learning things that are generally only taught to those in Aikido who are at a higher level than I am. Also, by studying Aikido, I am being taught things that would be reserved for Taichi students at a higher level than I am. So by studying both, I am ahead of where I would have been had I only studied one of them.

I think that Taichi and Aikido are essentially the same art and there is much to be gained by training in both.