ITF v. WTF

D

dcence

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Being a Kenpo guy, I have no clue but was curious as to which is the more prevalent between the ITF and the WTF. It seems the WTF is the more "sanctioned" organization, but ITF has claims legitimacy too.

This is probably a very political question, but which is the more prevalent in the US?

Derek Ence
 
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Shiatsu

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Well the WTF is on it's way out. Corruption and all. But the WTF is like what you see at the olympics, especially the sparring portions. The forms are more modern. ITF is older I think the forms are really similar to Shotokan forms.

I got to red in WTF then I moved. ITF, I was set to test for black then I moved. Damn the military. I prefered the ITF.

But it is kind of like asking which kenpo org is the best. You will here both sides.:asian:
 

Cruentus

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Originally posted by Shiatsu
Well the WTF is on it's way out. Corruption and all. But the WTF is like what you see at the olympics, especially the sparring portions. The forms are more modern. ITF is older I think the forms are really similar to Shotokan forms.

I got to red in WTF then I moved. ITF, I was set to test for black then I moved. Damn the military. I prefered the ITF.

But it is kind of like asking which kenpo org is the best. You will here both sides.:asian:

Through my experience, WTF is more directed towards competition, and olimpic sparing, as Shiatsu said. ITF is more combative/applicable to "real life." But, all in all, it depends on what the instructor is teaching that will determine what you'll get.
 

Damian Mavis

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WTF is more prevalent in most countries including the U.S.

WTF has MILLIONS of practitoners worldwide while we in the ITF number in the hundreds of thousands.

Damian Mavis
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Galvatron

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Originally posted by Shiatsu
Well the WTF is on it's way out.

I'm curious as to where you get that opinion from.

Un Yong Kim, the WTF president is currently under investigation by the South Korean government on bribery charges, that would hardly constitute the entire organization being "on the way out".

It's not the first time a high ranking official of a martial arts organization has been busted for corruption, and it won't be the last.

:)
 

Zepp

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Originally posted by Galvatron
I'm curious as to where you get that opinion from.

Un Yong Kim, the WTF president is currently under investigation by the South Korean government on bribery charges, that would hardly constitute the entire organization being "on the way out".

I think he's just being hopeful. :)
There are many who believe that the WTF's focus on Olympic Tae Kwon Do has hurt our martial art's integrity as a fighting art, and has led to an epidemic of sub-par teachers and McDojangs.

But I don't think they're "on the way out" either.
 

cali_tkdbruin

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Originally posted by Zepp
I think he's just being hopeful. :)
There are many who believe that the WTF's focus on Olympic Tae Kwon Do has hurt our martial art's integrity as a fighting art, and has led to an epidemic of sub-par teachers and McDojangs.

But I don't think they're "on the way out" either.

Yup, I'm in agreement with you. BTW, I'm a WTF-Kukkiwon associated TKD practitioner. In terms of MA styles, I've certainly noticed that over the years I've been training, in general, WTF-TKD practitioners are not very highly regarded by other MA stylists at all. Nonetheless, there are still some WTF-Kukkiwon Black belts that are very deserving of the rank they hold. These practitioners did not earn their rank in a Mc Dojang, that's for sure.

IMHO, as long as the promotion requirements are not made more stringent by each dojang, as well as making qualified instructor qualifications more uniform, then you're going to get what we're currently seeing. And, yes, the WTF is not going away anytime soon... :asian:
 

cali_tkdbruin

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P.S. Just as importantly, it's all about staying in business too, and...umm...who has the greenbacks to pay the promotion fees to advance in rank and keep you in bidnuss... :idunno:
 

Touch Of Death

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We always used to call it (I'm a terrible fighter) vs (what a terrible fighter) but that was mean and I would never say that to anyone's face, but I used to think it was funny. I don't hold that opinion.:D
 

glad2bhere

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Not being a TKD/TSD person this opinion comes from a bit different slant. My thought and prayer for the TKD/TSD community has always been that competition would be secondary to a martial or self-defense heritage. I can imagine that competition would be better for commerce and I don't fault people who want to take that route. For myself, though, I would have liked to see at least as much emphasis on these activities as forms of S-D or as cultural activities representative of Koreas martial past. My understanding is that the ITF has carried a more combat approach and that Gen. Choi encouraged his upper ranks to train in Hapkido techniques for this reason. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

Marginal

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That depends on how one interprets Gen. Choi's "You can't ride more than one horse at a time." comment.

Some take it to mean that studying anything but TKD is grounds for being booted out of TKD.
 

Marginal

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Eh. Interpretation's an iffy business even without contradictory quotes. Just saying that element is there, not that I agree with it. ;)
 

glad2bhere

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Well, OK. Lets put Gen Chois' comments to one side for the moment. In fact lets' put ITF/WTF as such to one side. Do most people generally agree that TKD needs to be first and foremost a martial or S-D practice, or first and foremost a form of competition?

Another question that comes to mind is whether or not, in the absence of the WTF can people connect with the ITF and somehow overlook its connection to North Korea or is this a non-issue? I'm not sure how someone could practice a Korean art managed by a Korean organization if that organization is heavily connected to a country that has become something of an outcast on the world stage. Has anyone given this any thought?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

cali_tkdbruin

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Originally posted by glad2bhere
Well, OK. Lets put Gen Chois' comments to one side for the moment. In fact lets' put ITF/WTF as such to one side. Do most people generally agree that TKD needs to be first and foremost a martial or S-D practice, or first and foremost a form of competition?

Another question that comes to mind is whether or not, in the absence of the WTF can people connect with the ITF and somehow overlook its connection to North Korea or is this a non-issue? I'm not sure how someone could practice a Korean art managed by a Korean organization if that organization is heavily connected to a country that has become something of an outcast on the world stage. Has anyone given this any thought?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

That's opening up a whole other political can of worms there sportsfans. :ultracool

But yeah, I'm sure the majority will agree that those in power in N. Korea are scumbags, they can't even feed their own citizens, let alone give them freedom and their civil rights. Go figure... :shrug:
 

glad2bhere

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".....That's opening up a whole other political can of worms there sportsfans...."

Yeah, thats why I was a little reluctant to come right out and ask for opinions. For myself the study and research into KMA is more a function of culture, martial science and self-defense. I am always being asked if we spar in Hapkido and its not unusual to get pointed comments when I state that we don't spar at all. Somewhere along the way the TKD people had a split and there are actually the same kinds of things going on in the Hapkido arts as people such as the Kuk Sool Won work to introduce competition to there curriculum. For myself, I have not seen much benefit to those sports that have introduced commercialism and competition. It just seems to be a bad combination that invites abuse sooner or later. As I watch what is happening with the various charges of fraud and abuse I guess I was wondering if anyone who had formerly been aligned with one camp had changed sides.

"But thats just my opinion. I could be wrong.";)

Best Wishes,

Bruce
 

Zepp

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Do most people generally agree that TKD needs to be first and foremost a martial or S-D practice, or first and foremost a form of competition?

Self-defense of course. It's always easier to adapt a practical, combative martial art to a competition than it is to adpat a sport into a fighting art.

The WTF and ITF are the largest organizations in Tae Kwon Do, but they're not the only ones. Over the years, many of the Korean masters have had differences of opinion with the KTA, or General Choi.

For example, the World Tae Kwon Do Association, under Grandmaster Duk Sung Son...

And there are others, including a few independent instructors here and there. As a rule, I think instructors under smaller organizations are more likely to teach a combative style of TKD as opposed to a competitive one.

I'm not saying that you won't find good instructors in self-defense in the WTF, just that you have to look harder for them.
 

Klondike93

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Originally posted by Damian Mavis
WTF is more prevalent in most countries including the U.S.

WTF has MILLIONS of practitoners worldwide while we in the ITF number in the hundreds of thousands.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Any ideas why that is Damian? I've always wondered about that.



:p
 

Klondike93

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Originally posted by Marginal
That depends on how one interprets Gen. Choi's "You can't ride more than one horse at a time." comment.

Some take it to mean that studying anything but TKD is grounds for being booted out of TKD.

Exactly what happened to me in the USTF/ITF. I wanted to learn kenpo and when they found out, GrandMaster Sereff had a cow and I hit the road (just more unwanted trash to them).


:p
 

Damian Mavis

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Glad2bhere: ITF IS NOT AFFILIATED OR CONTROLLED BY NORTH KOREA! heh call me a commie scumbag one more time and by geeze I'll...! haha There are 3 ITF's, one of which is under the despicable regime of North Korea and I have a hard time understanding the sick twisted bastards that think this is ok. The other 2 broke off because they didn't want anything to do with them, one before it happened (because we knew it was coming) and one when it happened (Gen. Choi's death) and the proof was finally laid out in front of them although I know damn well they knew it was coming too.

Klondike: I don't know all the reasons but here are a few. When Gen Choi was kicked out of Korea many of the ITF Korean masters that had moved around the world to teach ITF TKD were told to go back and learn the new WTF patterns and go under the WTF. Why many of them did I'm not sure but we were always told they had families in Korea that would be persecuted if they did not... but there is a very good chance that was propaganda. Another reason is Korea had the power and money to spread TKD much more effectively than Gen Choi who was residing in Canada. They put Masters all over the world opening schools who in turn pumped out masters to open more schools. ITF did the same thing but on a much smaller scale. After 30 years WTF is humungous and ITF grew too but not nearly as much. Like I said there might be other reaons but I'm not sure.

My opinion is that martial arts (including TKD) is about combat and street defence first and the last thing is should be concerned with is sport and competing... but there are many instructors that feel differently.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
 

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