Internal, grappling in Wing Chun

[Katsu Jin Ken]

have a couple questions actually.

First, do any of your schools have grappling incoorperated into Wing Chun? If so could you give some examples.

Also, does schools try to incoorperate some of the more internal MA type of things into your Wing chun training?

thanks in advance,

 

[ed-swckf]

have a couple questions actually.

First, do any of your schools have grappling incoorperated into Wing Chun? If so could you give some examples.

Also, does schools try to incoorperate some of the more internal MA type of things into your Wing chun training?

thanks in advance,

mine don't involve grappling but we do wing chun on the floor, i do a bit of grappling external to the club.

we touch on a few different aspects of internal kung fu we also use auto suggestion.

 

[spatulahunter]

at our school we will take a lock if it is there and convenient but we do not search for locks like a jujutsu practitioner would

 

[Katsu Jin Ken]

thats how we are at my school also Spat, "locking, seizing, controlling, striking, countering, taking down,.............all indictations of good flow"

also, "if its their take it, if its not, move on"

i dunno who said them.

 

[Hung Fa Moose]

At my school, both grappling and anti-takedowns are taught making use of the earth line of wing chun. We learn how to stay on our feet against grapplers shooting for our waists or legs, as well as how to get out of headlocks, chokes, bear hug and the like.


We also incorporate internal chi gung development and cultivation into our training through exercises such as jaam Jong (Standing Structure) and some forms, such as Fa Kuen and Sup Yuht Kuen.


Steve

 

[arnisador]

Speaking of internal...the first form in Wing Chun strongly reminds me of Goju-ryu's Tensho kata, which is the softer (more internal) counterpart of Sanchin. Does anyone know if there is a connection?

 

[Jan sing sang]

Katsu Jin Ken wrote:
mine don't involve grappling but we do wing chun on the floor

Could you explain how exactly you train your wing chun for use on the floor? Maybe you could describe one situation in which this could be seen?

thanx,

 

[ed-swckf]

Could you explain how exactly you train your wing chun for use on the floor? Maybe you could describe one situation in which this could be seen?

thanx,

You somehow quoted the wrong person there!! But anyway, if you understand wing chun to be a concept and principles martial art there are many ways for you to use it on the floor. You can use all the contact reflexes from contact as trained in chi sau, for example if someone is on top of you and striking down you use your arms to make contact, you can use your back/shoulders as a base to turn on for evasion. Thats one scenario, the truth is you really don't want to go down but if you train for worst case everything else seems much easier. Basically the priciple is simple and is very similar to wing chun on your feet.

 

[Jan sing sang]

ed-swckf wrote:
You somehow quoted the wrong person there!!

Yeah, sorry for that. My bed. (I actually almost did it again )

I understand what you are trying to say. I agree that you can apply the principles and concepts and have use of the things you have learnt through wing chun on ground fighting but only to a certain degree. I still think that once you end up on the floor it is not really wing chun anymore beacuse wing chun relays on it's structure which can not be maintained if you are for example on your back.

 

[ed-swckf]

Yeah, sorry for that. My bed. (I actually almost did it again )

I understand what you are trying to say. I agree that you can apply the principles and concepts and have use of the things you have learnt through wing chun on ground fighting but only to a certain degree. I still think that once you end up on the floor it is not really wing chun anymore beacuse wing chun relays on it's structure which can not be maintained if you are for example on your back.

Nah, its still wing chun if i bong sau and lap sau an incomming attack weather i'm stood up or stood on my head. Bui tze is a form that is used when you have failed to maintain your structure, yet all the techniques applied within are wing chun techniques, but by the logic you employ they aren't wing chun as structure has been lost. Wing chun would ideally love you to continually have complete control over your structure at all times during an altercation but the simple fact is its not a very likely thing to train for, hence the idea of the bui tze form for emergency techniques.

You can still incorperate a lot of wing chun structure on the floor and a good understanding of triangulation will help with that, a lot of schools will at times play with chi sau whilst being sat down, this looses the footwork but its still valid. I mean if you are caught wrong footed or off balance when you initiate your attack/defence is that still not wing chun? If its only wing chun when it is picture perfect to forms then wing chun would become a rather less practical form of self defence.

 

[Jan sing sang]

ed-swckf wrote:
Bui tze is a form that is used when you have failed to maintain your structure, yet all the techniques applied within are wing chun techniques, but by the logic you employ they aren't wing chun as structure has been lost.

This is not what I meant. Biu tze (among other things) teaches you some tehniques that work only in some specific situations when you have lost your structure but some other non BT tehniques that would work in "normal" situations would not work in this other situations when the structure is lost. Of course biu tze techniques are wing chun beacuse they take in to consideration this specific situations and deal with them in the best posibble way (I dont know Biu tze so I really would not go into details). What I meant is that in order for wing chun tehnuiques to work they need to have the neccesary structure behind it. (same thing applys to biu tze techniques even dough the neccesary structure in that situation may not be the same as it is for let's say SLT tehniques). It is this structure that makes possible that we can redirect the incoming force if it is stronger than ours. If it works only beacuse I am stronger than my opponent than it is INMHO not wing chun. I basicly think that wing chun technuiques as they are applyed standing up could not be used while on the ground. It depends on the point of view will you consider something wing chun or not. We could say that it is, beacuse you are using things that are a part of wing chun system and on the other hand we could say they aren't beacuse they can not work in the same way as they would standing up (or we could say as they were intended to work). I agree you can have much use of the skills you gained by wing chun training such as sensitivity in your arms and strong punches from short distance, if you end up on the ground.
I am not sure if I managed to succesfully wrote what I'm trying to say. Please take in to consideration that english is not my mothertongue so I have some troubles expresing my thoughts.

ed-swckf wrote:
You can still incorperate a lot of wing chun structure on the floor and a good understanding of triangulation will help with that

Could you please explain what you mean under triangulation?

thanx,

 

[ed-swckf]

This is not what I meant. Biu tze (among other things) teaches you some tehniques that work only in some specific situations when you have lost your structure but some other non BT tehniques that would work in "normal" situations would not work in this other situations when the structure is lost.

Bui tze teaches you some techniques that don't rely on the structure you mentioned initially. If you can use wing chun techniques and wing chun principles on your back how exactly is it not wing chun?

Of course biu tze techniques are wing chun beacuse they take in to consideration this specific situations and deal with them in the best posibble way (I dont know Biu tze so I really would not go into details).

Yes they are wing chun but they don't rely on the same structure as wing chun would optimumly work with. Its recovery from mistakes, if you made a mistake and end up on the floor and use wing chun techniques and principles to recover and protect yourself how is that not wing chun?

What I meant is that in order for wing chun tehnuiques to work they need to have the neccesary structure behind it. (same thing applys to biu tze techniques even dough the neccesary structure in that situation may not be the same as it is for let's say SLT tehniques). It is this structure that makes possible that we can redirect the incoming force if it is stronger than ours.

And why can you not have that structure when laying on your back, you have contact with the floor, what makes you think redirecting force is not possible on the floor?

If it works only beacuse I am stronger than my opponent than it is INMHO not wing chun. I basicly think that wing chun technuiques as they are applyed standing up could not be used while on the ground.

Who said anything about you needing to be stronger to make it work, i'm slim 5'7" and train with some big guys and i can utilise wing chun on the floor against these big strong guys without relying on strength. So are you logically saying what i am suggesting is wing chun as it doesn't rely upon my being stronger than the opponent. And why do you think that wing chun techniques could not be used on the ground? What qualifys that?

It depends on the point of view will you consider something wing chun or not. We could say that it is, beacuse you are using things that are a part of wing chun system and on the other hand we could say they aren't beacuse they can not work in the same way as they would standing up (or we could say as they were intended to work).

The thing is its not just techniques that are being used on the floor it is the underlying concepts and principles of wing chun that are applied and that make wing chun work on the floor. Throwing a simple shape up such as bong sau or tan sau is a very small part of it, its being able to understand the principles behind each technique and utilise that under rather realistic conditions. Things are not going to work in the same way you trained them in a real situation, there will be differences, and what you do may not look anything like what you have ever trained before but in principle it is wing chun, the techniques aren't as important as the principles you train. And this is what is used to make wing chun work, on the floor or in any other situation when you need to defend yourself.

I agree you can have much use of the skills you gained by wing chun training such as sensitivity in your arms and strong punches from short distance, if you end up on the ground.
I am not sure if I managed to succesfully wrote what I'm trying to say. Please take in to consideration that english is not my mothertongue so I have some troubles expresing my thoughts.

These skills are aided by the principles behind them which can transcend onto the floor if needs be, hopefully they never need to be used at all. Your English is good but i don't agree with what you have said, it could be a case of misinterpretation via language barriers but i sincearly hope you take what i have said and thing it through.

Could you please explain what you mean under triangulation?

thanx,

Triangulation is a large subject in wing chun, one that should start to be covered from day one, do you study wing chun? If so i feel you should havce a grasp over some of the fundamentals if not i can illustrate it in basic terms?

 

[Jan sing sang]

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
Bui tze teaches you some techniques that don't rely on the structure you mentioned initially.

Yes, but they still rely on some structure and this structure is taken into consideration. If there would be no structure behind the motion the technique just wouldnt work. Do you agree?

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
If you can use wing chun techniques and wing chun principles on your back how exactly is it not wing chun?

The real question is if you can use it or not. I always start from a position that the opponent is much stronger than me. If it can work under that condition than it's wing chun. You say it works for you so i guess it works. I found that certain aspects of wing chun helps when you are on the floor but my wing chun can not work in the same way and with the same idea as it does while I'am on my feet. I suppose it could be from my lack of knowledge or skill so untill i finish the whole system i'll stay openminded considering this topic.

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
Yes they are wing chun but they don't rely on the same structure as wing chun would optimumly work with.

Yup.That's the egzact thing i said in my earlier post.

Originally Posted by me
in order for wing chun tehnuiques to work they need to have the neccesary structure behind it. (same thing applys to biu tze techniques even dough the neccesary structure in that situation may not be the same as it is for let's say SLT tehniques).

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
Its recovery from mistakes, if you made a mistake and end up on the floor and use wing chun techniques and principles to recover and protect yourself how is that not wing chun?

Again, if it works if the opponent is stronger, it's wing chun.

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
And why can you not have that structure when laying on your back, you have contact with the floor, what makes you think redirecting force is not possible on the floor?

Because of the lack of mobility, space and power. Power comes from structure. It means that in order to produce power (or gung) you have to use your body as a whole. Power should come from the ground through the legs. If the force is still to great you can not redirect the force but only your body in relation to the incoming force, you can not do that if you are on the floor. One of the wing chun principles is "if he withdraws i follow, if he advances i withdraw" (in free translation). How can i withdraw if I am lying on my back?

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
And why do you think that wing chun techniques could not be used on the ground? What qualifys that?

Answered in short above

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
Throwing a simple shape up such as bong sau or tan sau is a very small part of it, its being able to understand the principles behind each technique and utilise that under rather realistic conditions. Things are not going to work in the same way you trained them in a real situation, there will be differences, and what you do may not look anything like what you have ever trained before but in principle it is wing chun, the techniques aren't as important as the principles you train.

Training a technique is different than using a technique. Shape of a technique becomes irrevelant in the end. All techniques seamingly look the same even dough in their essence they are different. But still, for one to be able to come to this level he must first train the techniques in the same way as they are presented in the forms. The techniques without principles are nothing, the principles without the techniques are nothing.

Originally Posted by ed-swckf
Triangulation is a large subject in wing chun, one that should start to be covered from day one, do you study wing chun? If so i feel you should havce a grasp over some of the fundamentals if not i can illustrate it in basic terms?

To me triangulation is just a word in foreign language who's meaning i do not understand. I would be thankfull if you could illustrate it in some basic terms so I'll know what you are talking about. If it is a fundamental part of wing chun i should know something about it beacuse i do train wing chun even dough probably not as long as you. You have finished the biu tze? Can i ask how long are you training wing chun?

thanxs

 

[brothershaw]

Speaking of internal...the first form in Wing Chun strongly reminds me of Goju-ryu's Tensho kata, which is the softer (more internal) counterpart of Sanchin. Does anyone know if there is a connection?

Of course southern chinese arts>>>> okinawa.
Or to be more specific southern white crane heavy influence on okinawan arts. Sanchin is derived from the southern chinese arts that share similiarities in theory and practice although not exactly the same.
Look at bai mei, southern mantis and wing chun and the sanchin stance, and also some of the movements. I dont have the time to get detailed but with minimal effort you can find the connections.

 

[arnisador]

Yes, but I was looking for something that more specifically connected a Chinese version of Tensho to Wing Chun.

 

[bcbernam777]

In my opinion grappling has no place in Wing chun, and there is already internal training in Wing chun, from the very start.

 

[7starmantis]

In my opinion grappling has no place in Wing chun, and there is already internal training in Wing chun, from the very start.

In this sense, what is the Wing Chun practitioners weapon if found on the ground with a grappler?

7sm

 

[ed-swckf]

In my opinion grappling has no place in Wing chun, and there is already internal training in Wing chun, from the very start.

In the sense of grappling like BJJ and arts that share similaritys, i would agree, it has no place in the teaching of wing chun.

 

[bcbernam777]

In this sense, what is the Wing Chun practitioners weapon if found on the ground with a grappler?

7sm

THE REASONS WHY WE CAN AVOIND GOING TO GROUND

If trained properly the Wing Chun practicioner does not go to the ground, I think I have posted the reasons why before, but basicaly for the following reasons we dont have to end up on the ground:

A) firstly the Wing Chun practicioner developes a well developed root, this being the Sui Lum Tao energy, the problem is that a lot of Wing Chun Schools simply do not develop their students in this aspect of Wing Chun, in so doing they rob their students on what is realisticly the essence of its effectiveness,

B) the other reasons they shouldn't go to the ground is quite simple, they move, I dont know why it is but so many students have no real world footwork, their feet are dead, they have no conception of fighting distance, or timing, or of the basic principals of true mobilolty in a real world situation

C) another aspect is the rotational power of the Chum Kui, I have had people try to tackle me before, and utilised the rotation of the Chum Kui, they always without exemption would shoot out the other direction, it was a fundamental case of using their force against them.

Now a couple of practical reasons why you would not want to go to the ground:

A) if you go rolling around the ground with someone you can end up with a nasty supries in your back, e.g. broken glass etc, or you could end up rolling around on some nasty terrain, bitchamun, concrete, rocks etc, etc.

B) If you do go to the ground you have no idea if the oponant has a couple of mates waiting around the corner, in that case you definitly dont want to go to the ground.

IF YOU DO GO TO THE GROUND

The goal of Wing Chu is to not go to the ground, but if you do end up on the ground then you can still utilise enough of the principles in Wing Chun, even on the ground, to get you out of trouble, and get you back on your feet, you can still utilise the proper structure, the use of the centreline, the CK and BJ energy, the elbow line, etc etc to regain control, even on the ground.

 

[Danny T]

bcbernam777 I feek you make a few contradictions here.

If trained properly the Wing Chun practicioner does not go to the ground, I think I have posted the reasons why before, but basicaly for the following reasons we dont have to end up on the ground:

Are you saying only improperly trained WC practitioners will ever go to the ground or be taken to the ground? That is liken to only improperly trained driver’s will ever get into an vehicle accident. Honestly now, you don’t really believe this do you? First you state does not go to the ground, then you explain why we don’t “have” to end up on the ground. There is a large difference between “Does not go to the ground” and “we don’t have to end up on the ground.

A) firstly the Wing Chun practicioner developes a well developed root, this being the Sui Lum Tao energy, the problem is that a lot of Wing Chun Schools simply do not develop their students in this aspect of Wing Chun, in so doing they rob their students on what is realisticly the essence of its effectiveness,

This I agree with however, this still will not stop the practitioner from never ever go to the ground. So what happens if you do go to the ground? What do you call it? Laying on your back or sitting on your opponent WC? I happen to call it grappling because it denotes the range of combat we are in whether standing or on the ground.

You can certainly utilize WC in all grappling situations just as you can in a standing grappling situation. It can be called whatever you wish it is still grappling or maybe we could agree to call ground chin na, the art of seizing or grasping the opponent.

B) the other reasons they shouldn't go to the ground is quite simple, they move, I dont know why it is but so many students have no real world footwork, their feet are dead, they have no conception of fighting distance, or timing, or of the basic principals of true mobilolty in a real world situation

Now you say “shouldn’t go to the ground”, before you stated, “does not go to the ground”. Which is it?
And yes mobility is a great deterrent to being taken down however it isn’t 100% failsafe.

C) another aspect is the rotational power of the Chum Kui, I have had people try to tackle me before, and utilised the rotation of the Chum Kui, they always without exemption would shoot out the other direction, it was a fundamental case of using their force against them.

Again, I agree this is a very good move which is use in many other arts as well as WC but isn’t foolproof. Even great athletes get tackled in football and rugby. We accept that as a part of the game. They work very hard at not getting caught or tackled but it still happens. I don’t believe the average WC practitioner has any more ability than them. So there is a strong possibility of being taken down also.

Now a couple of practical reasons why you would not want to go to the ground:

A) if you go rolling around the ground with someone you can end up with a nasty supries in your back, e.g. broken glass etc, or you could end up rolling around on some nasty terrain, bitchamun, concrete, rocks etc, etc.

B) If you do go to the ground you have no idea if the oponant has a couple of mates waiting around the corner, in that case you definitly dont want to go to the ground.

This I also agree with, I don’t want to go to the ground, but this still contradicts your previous statement of “the properly trained WC practitioner does not go to the ground.

The goal of Wing Chu is to not go to the ground, but if you do end up on the ground then you can still utilise enough of the principles in Wing Chun, even on the ground, to get you out of trouble, and get you back on your feet, you can still utilise the proper structure, the use of the centreline, the CK and BJ energy, the elbow line, etc etc to regain control, even on the ground.

Ahh, now the “goal” is not to go to the ground. Again a contradiction of the statement, “… WC practitioner does not go to the ground. I agree that you can utilize many WC principles on the ground and should be able to once properly trained in doing so in that environment. The principles of WC can be utilized in all aspects and arenas of combat. But if the practitioner isn’t familiar with that aspect then they will have a difficult time performing there.

I have had the pleasure of training in WC for almost 2 decades. I have utilized it standing, kneeling, with weapons, and on my back. Now I’m not the greatest or even close to be a great martial artist so maybe it takes more training on my part but being able to use the WC principles in a ground position took me quite some time to become proficient at it. As to a WC practitioner not going to the ground, you have never really worked against a non stopping opponent of equal ability then. It is easy to sidestep and redirect an attacker’s energy,
1. when you know it is coming and then they stop, not continuing the attack
2. they are only committed partially to attacking you.
3. they are not as advanced as you or are considerable weaker than you.

Take someone with the same training as you and have them attack you fully committed to taking you to the ground once they are able to. I believe you or any other practitioner will have their hands full in “not going to the ground.” Now this not to say I want to go to the ground for I don’t and do a lot of training to prevent it if possible. But, I am also realistic and acknowledge want can happen and am willing to training for that possibility. WC is a great system for learning about yourself, your body and how to use is all distances of fighting. I am certain you train from long distance (no contact) to bridging to very close right up to the point of the opponent or you being able to grasp the other. I'm also certain you work takedowns on the opponent, what happens if you are takendown? You must train in that environment for it is different.

Danny Terrell