In defense of oil and gas companies, they aren't the bad guys

[billc]

Here is an article from the daily caller that discusses the profits made by oil and gas companies.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/

From the article:

Their earnings, however, are in line with those of other major U.S. manufacturing industries, as measured against their sales. The latest available data for 2010 earnings shows the oil and natural gas industry earned 5.7 cents for every dollar of sales. This is below the earnings of all U.S. manufacturing, which earned an average of 8.5 cents for every dollar of sales. Many would not expect an industry as large as the U.S. oil and natural gas industry, which supports 9.2 million U.S. [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]jobs[/color][/color] and contributes to 7.5 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), to have lower earnings per dollar of sales than the average manufacturing industry, but that’s the reality.

Further, U.S. oil and natural gas companies pay considerably more in taxes than the average manufacturing company. According to data found in the Standard & Poor’s Compustat North American Database, the industry’s 2009 net income tax expenses — essentially their effective marginal income tax rate — averaged 41 percent, compared to 26 percent for the S&P Industrial companies. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) concludes that, as an additional part of their tax obligation, the major energy-producing companies paid or incurred over $280 billion of income tax expenses between 2006 and 2008.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/#ixzz1KgPGZNsE

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/#ixzz1KgP3rqwD

 

[Steve]

I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a significant portion of those jobs are gas station workers. And what about those subsidies? I think Obama is right on with this one. Why are we providing subsidies to big oil when they're reaping record profits in the midst of a recession?

 

[Big Don]

Steve, they are also paying record taxes. Can the US government afford to forgo those taxes? Raise their costs by fiat, or law and and the price will be passed on to the consumer. Perhaps the real people to blame for today's record high gas prices are the environmentalists who stifle drilling and haven't allowed new refineries. Remember the refinery lost to Katrina? Has that been replaced?

 

[Steve]

Wait. How would eliminating subsidies absolve them of their tax obligation?

 

[Steve]

As an aside, I still believe that the patriotic thing to do is to purchase an ev auto. Energy independence is a matter of national security.

 

[Big Don]

Wait. How would eliminating subsidies absolve them of their tax obligation?

If the subsidies are $5 Billion, you can bet, that the second those go away, the price of their products gets bumped up enough to cover it.
That is how businesses operate...

 

[Twin Fist]

like theone you plug in and it catches fire?

40K for a car that dies after 50 miles and takes 24 hours to charge?

no thanks

 

[Steve]

If the subsidies are $5 Billion, you can bet, that the second those go away, the price of their products gets bumped up enough to cover it.
That is how businesses operate...

You think? I don't. I think they'll do just what they've always done, which is to charge ABSOLUTELY as much as they think they can get away with. And laugh all the way to the bank. Of course they'll bump prices. Just like they bump prices when the weather gets warmer... and bump prices when the weather gets colder. When a refinery goes **** up, they bump the prices because refining oil will be more expensive. And then they bump prices a few months later because the oil cost them more to refine a few months back. It's collusion, guys. They have us by the balls and they know it.

like theone you plug in and it catches fire?

40K for a car that dies after 50 miles and takes 24 hours to charge?

no thanks

National security. Number 1 reason i'm willing to pay money I don't need to in order to buy a car I can drive for about 70 miles on a charge. I'm willing to make the adjustment to my personal life, and the number one reason is that every single ounce of electricity we use in America is produced in America.

I understand that you might not think that this is as important as I do. It's a liberal thing.

 

[Cryozombie]

As an aside, I still believe that the patriotic thing to do is to purchase an ev auto. Energy independence is a matter of national security.

I'm right there with you, as soon as you give me the money to buy one, or the Manufacturers make them cost less than a pair of Camaros.

 

[Carol]

National security. Number 1 reason i'm willing to pay money I don't need to in order to buy a car I can drive for about 70 miles on a charge. I'm willing to make the adjustment to my personal life, and the number one reason is that every single ounce of electricity we use in America is produced in America.

I'm sorry Steve, this is absolutely not the case! We do not generate all the electricity we use in America. Ask someone in Ontario or Quebec, or possibly even Atlantic Canada what they think of their Hydro bill. The electricity costs for most citizens in the eastern parts of Canada has gone through the roof. American cities from Boston, MA to Houston, TX buy more than $1,500,000,000 worth of electricity from Hydro Quebec...and now with the proposed Northern Pass project, the utils in the northeast want to spend another billion chopping up the northern wilderness of northern NH so cities that aren't in NH can buy even more electricity from Hydro Quebec.

For the electricity we do generate in America, it is often done with foreign fuels. The primary method is to burn coal to boil water to make steam to turn a turbine to generate electricity which is a horribly inefficient system. We import tonnes and tonnes of coal from abroad. The state of NH imports more than half of its coal from Colombia and Venezuela. Plants on the power grid depend heavily on diesel generators for backup power and to supply power to regions that are not well suited to receive coal shipments. Some other plants use natural gas, we import that too...sometimes from unfriendly countries. Not sure if we import nuclear material, but the U.S. has not built a nuke in 30 years. The World Nuclear association states we might have 4 new nukes by 2020. We'll need more than that to talk energy independence. Some areas have wind power, but the 1.5 megawatt turbine in Portsmouth, RI has been criticized for consuming more in fossil fuels for production than it will ever produce in return throughout the course of its usable life. We have wood power as well, but that is not as widespread.

Based on information provided by Nissan, the Leaf requires approx. 24 kilowatt hours to charge. What do we typically do to generate 24 kWh of electricity for that 70 miles of driving

1. Burn approx. 5.5 pounds of coal
2. Burn approx 2.75 gallons of diesel
3. Burn approx. 85 cubic feet of natural gas.
4. Split the atom
5. Buy it from Canada.



http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/243806/northern-pass-project-two-views
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/742706-196/report-psnhs-use-of-coal-drains-green.html
http://www.necn.com/pages/landing_newengland?blockID=185020&tagID=57961
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf41.html
http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging#/leaf-electric-car/faq/list/charging
https://docs.google.com/a/mutualink...MBep_t&sig=AHIEtbRVgvt42GIVD7WPziBgAzUMaL-Ajg
http://greenecon.net/how-to-measure...ssions-for-home-heating/energy_economics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal

 

[billc]

thanks carol, that was a great post.

 

[Big Don]

Neither electric cars nor hybrids are really viable replacements at this time. The infrastructure isn't there, the prices are too high, the compounds in the batteries are toxic...
Drilling HERE would help. Annexing Mexico and drilling there would work too...

 

[ganglian]

Here is an article from the daily caller that discusses the profits made by oil and gas companies.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/

From the article:

Their earnings, however, are in line with those of other major U.S. manufacturing industries, as measured against their sales. The latest available data for 2010 earnings shows the oil and natural gas industry earned 5.7 cents for every dollar of sales. This is below the earnings of all U.S. manufacturing, which earned an average of 8.5 cents for every dollar of sales. Many would not expect an industry as large as the U.S. oil and natural gas industry, which supports 9.2 million U.S. [COLOR=green !important][COLOR=green !important]jobs[/color][/color] and contributes to 7.5 percent of gross domestic product (GDP), to have lower earnings per dollar of sales than the average manufacturing industry, but that’s the reality.

Further, U.S. oil and natural gas companies pay considerably more in taxes than the average manufacturing company. According to data found in the Standard & Poor’s Compustat North American Database, the industry’s 2009 net income tax expenses — essentially their effective marginal income tax rate — averaged 41 percent, compared to 26 percent for the S&P Industrial companies. The Energy Information Administration (EIA) concludes that, as an additional part of their tax obligation, the major energy-producing companies paid or incurred over $280 billion of income tax expenses between 2006 and 2008.

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/#ixzz1KgPGZNsE

Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/04/25/the-truth-about-americas-oil-gas-companies-part-i/#ixzz1KgP3rqwD

The real villainas are trolls with a soap box


(Ducks for cover)

 

[ganglian]

like theone you plug in and it catches fire?

40K for a car that dies after 50 miles and takes 24 hours to charge?

no thanks

Or the one that just ranked highest in car tests......

 

[Xue Sheng]

Combined that big 5 oil companies made what amounts to a $39,000,000 "a day" profit.

Meanwhile we pay $4.00/gal and it is going up

Nuff said

 

[Steve]

I'm right there with you, as soon as you give me the money to buy one, or the Manufacturers make them cost less than a pair of Camaros.

My quote is for $100 over invoice. $32,600 out the door. When I file my taxes, I'll get $7500 back from Uncle Sugar as a tax credit. So, $25k... not a cheap car, but not completely out of sight. Even at full price $32k, it's not out of reach for the person who will likely be in the market for it: a white collar worker commuting to an office relatively close to the house.

I'm sorry Steve, this is absolutely not the case! We do not generate all the electricity we use in America. Ask someone in Ontario or Quebec, or possibly even Atlantic Canada what they think of their Hydro bill. The electricity costs for most citizens in the eastern parts of Canada has gone through the roof. American cities from Boston, MA to Houston, TX buy more than $1,500,000,000 worth of electricity from Hydro Quebec...and now with the proposed Northern Pass project, the utils in the northeast want to spend another billion chopping up the northern wilderness of northern NH so cities that aren't in NH can buy even more electricity from Hydro Quebec.

Sorry, I should have qualified my statement. Washington State sells electricity to other States and to Canada. We generate more than we consume. Some States, about 10 in 2008, purchase upwards of 5% of their electricity from Mexico or Canada. Most of that is Natural Gas.

This is what I've been looking at: http://www.eia.doe.gov/states/sep_sum/html/sum_btu_eu.html

For the electricity we do generate in America, it is often done with foreign fuels.

And here we are, back to our dependance on foreign oil. In this case, add natural gas to the mix, too. But the thrust here is energy independence. If we're serious about national security, this has to be a bigger deal than it is. That bill, TF and the others aren't completely backing me up here is suspicious to me and only makes me more sure that they're jersey wearers who will disagree with "the other side" no matter what the position is.

The primary method is to burn coal to boil water to make steam to turn a turbine to generate electricity which is a horribly inefficient system. We import tonnes and tonnes of coal from abroad. The state of NH imports more than half of its coal from Colombia and Venezuela. Plants on the power grid depend heavily on diesel generators for backup power and to supply power to regions that are not well suited to receive coal shipments. Some other plants use natural gas, we import that too...sometimes from unfriendly countries. Not sure if we import nuclear material, but the U.S. has not built a nuke in 30 years. The World Nuclear association states we might have 4 new nukes by 2020. We'll need more than that to talk energy independence. Some areas have wind power, but the 1.5 megawatt turbine in Portsmouth, RI has been criticized for consuming more in fossil fuels for production than it will ever produce in return throughout the course of its usable life. We have wood power as well, but that is not as widespread.

Regarding coal, http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/special/exports_imports.html

This is what I have been looking at. We export far more coal than is imported, and imported coal represents less than 3% of the coal used in America. Dramatically different than what we import from coal. "Coal imports are part of the overall picture of the coal industry in the U.S. but they represent a small portion of the domestic coal consumption, averaging about 3 percent of total U.S. coal consumption in a year."

Based on information provided by Nissan, the Leaf requires approx. 24 kilowatt hours to charge. What do we typically do to generate 24 kWh of electricity for that 70 miles of driving

I'm not tracking here, Carol. 24 kWh translates to a practical cost of $2.64 cents per day at $.11 per kWh (Puget Power charges .8 cents for the first... 700 kWh I think. Then .11 cents per kWh after that). 70 miles for me is 3 gallons of gas. At $4/gallon ($4.05 yesterday), that's pretty good savings.

And, while 24 kWh/day will definitely hike my electricity usage, I think it's important to keep things in context. An average hot tub running at 1500 Watts for four hours per day (which isn't unreasonable if it's cycling on and off to maintain temperature 24/7) is burning 6 kWh per day. A 100 Watt light bulb on for 12 hours/day is coming in at just over 1 kWh/day (on only half the day). That's just one typical bulb. 4 hours of TV per day on the 50" plasma, plus the xbox 360, the surround system and the cable box is also about 6 kWh, conservatively.

Point is, if I drive 70 miles in a day, that's a LOT of travel for most of us. I drive 10 miles to work and home. 10 miles to BJJ and home. 40 miles right there. Then trudging around Covington to the grocery store, to pick up the baby, run the teens around a little and get some errands done. I might drive 50 miles per day on average. In lieu of burning just over 2 gallons of gasoline, I'll be using about 18 to 20 kWh of electricity.

1. Burn approx. 5.5 pounds of coal
2. Burn approx 2.75 gallons of diesel
3. Burn approx. 85 cubic feet of natural gas.
4. Split the atom
5. Buy it from Canada.

I'm not sure what you're driving at here. There's wind power, hydro electric... and relative to how much electricity other things pull, running an entire car all day on about 3 to 4 times as much electricity as I'm using to watch the boob tube seems pretty reasonable to me.

Edit: I want to add, Carol, that I'm VERY interested in any information you have. You seem knowledgeable, and this is an area that I'm researching actively. I am sharing information that is accurate as I understand it. If I'm wrong about something, I welcome correction. My intent isn't to mislead anyone.

What I am is passionate about severing as much as I can my addiction to oil, and supporting technology that breaks their stranglehold on our economy. I am also very passionate and sincere about moving toward energy independence.

 

[Steve]

Neither electric cars nor hybrids are really viable replacements at this time. The infrastructure isn't there, the prices are too high, the compounds in the batteries are toxic...
Drilling HERE would help. Annexing Mexico and drilling there would work too...

It's a viable replacement for me. Battery technology isn't completely there yet, but I'm confident that it will improve. Lithium isn't the panacea, but overall, it's a huge step in the right direction.

For what it's worth, anyone here who has mentioned the "toxic" materials used to create batteries. Are you in favor of nuclear energy? It's "clean" but there is a growing amount of waste that is being stored until we come up with a viable way to dispose of it.

 

[Big Don]

My quote is for $100 over invoice. $32,600 out the door. When I file my taxes, I'll get $7500 back from Uncle Sugar as a tax credit.

So, we should subsidize you, not the large companies...

 

[Xue Sheng]

subsidize me and I'll buy one of these and at least get 40 mpg

 

[Big Don]

subsidize me and I'll buy one of these and at least get 40 mpg

Yeah, but, then you'll want grease for your hair, and a leather jacket...
It never stops, does it, Fonzarelli?