impatient american survivalist mentality

[bribrius]

so as i describe someone i know.


But he has a interesting perspective sending three boys into martial arts and is also of the weapons/survivalist club.

"its all ********" is pretty much his attitude. And went through the explanation in discussing why i am doing wrong by sending my kid to taekwondo.

close as i can i will repeat this mindset.

Apparently he sent his kids for six years. Then they were getting their *** kicked by someone in jujitsu. so he went to their school and yanked them out. Went to another instructor somewhere else and asked about a "advanced, fast moving program".

his opinon is the six years was a waste of money. His boys still got their butt kicked. He said their belt in that was about worthless. Perhaps partly due to the school i am not sure. The new instructor explained the curriculum, said he couldnt move the kids that quick. My friend of course, is all about quick. Figures if the military can train someone to kill in a few weeks then a martial arts instructor should be able to do it as well. So my friend says nevermind, goes to another school.The instructor gives the same speech about not being able to move the kids along that quick. He actually ended up going to a number of schools until he got the answer he wanted. Even the last saying no. But then the question comes up "well what will it cost me for you to do so?"

suddenly, at triple the price, the kids are on the fast moving program and not in regular classes.

so my friend suggests i do the same. And says he tried the regular way, they are just out to take his money, the kids learned little to nothing effective quick enough over years. And his justification is "we dont have time for this. They are out to waste our time and money." as in i dont have time either to wait ten years for my child to get to the point of being able to defend themself. He explains my daughter would probably end up raped before they teach her anything worth a damn to prevent it. And goes back to his boys and their first six years as a example. "six years and they are getting their *** kicked by a kid who spent a year in jujitso and they were a three belts ahead of them... and that was just a kid. They should have been able to defend themselves against adults after six years." and then of course again

"we don't have time for these games"...

keep in mind the background however. This is part of the weapons, guns, survivalist, prepare for the worst group.

My question to him is... but is your boys learning a art now? which of course he doesn't really care. works or it doesnt. I really want my daughter learning a art. But it does pose a couple questions.

not really sure what to make of it. Not even sure what the his boys are in now but they are in the teenage years and i have a feeling it is something a little more serious in training. Keeping my daughter in her tae for now though. she likes it. i am happy with it. But far has the time and money, preparing for the worst and legitamacy of much of the training. thoughts?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think I'd be considering new friends. But that's just me.

It seems you're dealing with a number of issues here.

There is no universal standard for belt colors. A belt color X in one style does not mean anything outside of that style. Sometimes it doesn't mean anything outside of a given dojo. And of course, a student has their own abilities or lack of same. Perhaps your friend's children are wimps (no offense).

I think there is also a need to differentiate between martial arts training and self-defense training. If one becomes proficient in a given martial art, one would of course expect to be able to defend oneself. But the focus of martial arts training is to learn that art; so there may not be a 'rush' to pass along pure self-defense material at an early stage of training.

If one wants self-defense training only and in a hurry, take self-defense training, not traditional martial arts training. I would recommend boxing, wrestling, and perhaps training more suited to instant use, such as Krav Maga, which I've heard good things about.

You also touched upon the money aspect of martial arts training. Although not all martial arts training is based on a profit-motive, many are, and some of them are (popularly despised as 'McDojos') may well have no particular interest in doing anything to end your child's association with the dojo earlier rather than later. If you find that to be the case, find another dojo.

 

[Stac3y]

So he had his kids in a school for 6 years. So what? If the kids were just treading water and weren't self-motivated, they probably didn't give a damn about getting whupped by the jiujitsu kid. Maybe they never wanted to be in MA anyway. Maybe they think dad's a nut case. Like Bill, I'd be shopping for new friends.

 

[Jenna]

Learning of a martial art - and to be fair any complicated activity - does take time. I guess the question, "How much time is enough?" will yield subjective answers that will differ from one student / parent to another and likewise from one instructor to another.

Ultimately I guess unsatisfied students / parents can change schools in the search for more rapid learning. I would suggest though that when the learning becomes TOO fast there is a risk that the lesson is not learned at all well.

What use is a piece of black cloth shaped into a belt when the student wearing has been forced through their syllabus so quickly that they have either not learned the techniques properly or have no grasp of how to deploy them usefully?

In which case, which is better, a daughter that has a strong foundation yellow belt, has taken time to assimilate what few techniques she has been taught, knows when and how to use them and has practiced their use on the mats - OR - a "fast moving" graduate brown belt that can show her certificate, talk the talk and but has no handle on what they are supposed to know. Might a lower grade be the more prepared in reality? Maybe, maybe not. I think the student's learning efficiency is important. Some can learn quickly - perhaps quicker than the instructor is teaching. Some will learn nothing during a "fast track" course.

Personally I think martial arts learning often takes more time than we plan for. I worry that rushing this process will leave the student coming up short in the cold punch of reality.

Your title says it all. We are an impatient society. And but if we demand Wendy's Burger instant gratification then we have to expect Wendy's Burger* nutritional quality. I would say if you do not have time to learn at the pace appropriate to proper learning, then do not waste effort and money paying for a quick fix which provides nothing except a false sense of security.

In martial arts terms that is a recipe for disaster in my opinion

Jenna x

*I like Wendy's btw

 

[Flying Crane]

it's also possible that his kids simply lack the aptitude for it. just because daddy wants them to be ***-kickers, doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

 

[mcjon77]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand part of the story:

1) His kids were in some martial art (e.g. karate, taekwondo, whatever) for 6 years.
2) They got their asses kicked by a kid with only one year of jujitsu training.

Then why not just enroll the kids in jujitsu? After all, he has hard evidence that a kid with one year of jujitsu can beat the hell out of kids with 6 years of whatever they were taking before.

 

[Carol]

If a person's values are not compatible with my own values, then I do not let that person have influence or say over decisions that my family or I have to live with. Period.

 

[bribrius]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand part of the story:

1) His kids were in some martial art (e.g. karate, taekwondo, whatever) for 6 years.
2) They got their asses kicked by a kid with only one year of jujitsu training.

Then why not just enroll the kids in jujitsu? After all, he has hard evidence that a kid with one year of jujitsu can beat the hell out of kids with 6 years of whatever they were taking before.

well he is also my main supplier for firearms, ammo, anything pretty much i might need including military and police assortment, tactical gear. I basically stick to the ammo and firearms but he offers a interesting amount of equipment options. His opinion has some weight with me as this is his business. He lives it sort of speak. He also took training with the school i originally took fma with years ago, also i believe part of what his kids are currently learning. And i would consider him a friend as we have similiar interests and he has helped me on occasion. The school his kids were orignally in is actually instructed by a couple people we both know. so it complicates matters that he pulled his children out and on his advice i chose to send mine to another school since we already know someone and have that connection. But i am hesitant to blame taekwondo so i can only imagine the problem must be with the slow movement of the kids in the school.

Where my daughter currently is she only had six other students in her class tonight, the school owner and a assistant instructor. so at least at entry level traditional taekwondo, where she is i am currently happy. she is as well and being a girl i don't want to push her too hard (plus her mother would freak out like she did the other night when i showed her some blade movements).

I am keeping my eyes open and looking for options as well. Maybe some one on one classes in a different art at some point once she progresses a while in her current.

Far as my friend.I believe part of their new training is jujitsu and he was also paying for the fma i mentioned above. Not sure the entires scope of it. He has my radar up however. I am also wondering if that is to a extent how this works. The more you pay, the better training you get. I am also seeing the position a school or instructor may be put in with dealing with a parent of this mentality. You are attempting to teach a art and the parent wants it NOW. Progress NOW.

 

[fighter_x]

I suppose I see both sides here. The heart of the matter lies in you determining which course of study you want your children to gravitate towards. Most mainstream schools offer a curriculum that enhances character as the children progress physically. Others still, take a more traditional stance and focus on developing discipline and honor for the heritage and/or lineage of their art. There was a time when I was very focused on the "art" side of martial art, but for me that time has since past. As a self defense instructor, I prefer the term "martial science" over art. Training LEO's, soldiers, and corrections officers, one can see the need for a survival based type of training, and I don't think that is appropriate for children. Children (and some adults) do not possess the maturity to wield that sort of knowledge.

At the same time this is not to say that there is no value in traditional studies, there most certainly is, and I incorporate many of them in my teaching. However, I disagree that staying the course in a traditional system will give a student sufficient skills for self defense. No matter the style, the system, or the fighter, you can have all the tools in the world and not know how to use them to properly defend yourself. In my opinion this has to be trained with the goal of self defense being the main focus.

 

[Flea]

I'm sure the ages of those boys, and of your daughter, would make a huge difference too. If he started his boys off at 3 or 4, their learning curve would be radically different than if they started at 10. If he has that survivalist mentality he may have enrolled them way too early.

And of course there's always that rebellion factor to take into account. Kids have a tendency to stray away from the parents' agenda, if only for a while. He might have done better by forbidding them even to DISCUSS martial arts in his presence. In my family that would have made it a sure thing. :ultracool

 

[MJS]

so as i describe someone i know.


But he has a interesting perspective sending three boys into martial arts and is also of the weapons/survivalist club.

"its all ********" is pretty much his attitude. And went through the explanation in discussing why i am doing wrong by sending my kid to taekwondo.

close as i can i will repeat this mindset.

Apparently he sent his kids for six years. Then they were getting their *** kicked by someone in jujitsu. so he went to their school and yanked them out. Went to another instructor somewhere else and asked about a "advanced, fast moving program".

his opinon is the six years was a waste of money. His boys still got their butt kicked. He said their belt in that was about worthless. Perhaps partly due to the school i am not sure. The new instructor explained the curriculum, said he couldnt move the kids that quick. My friend of course, is all about quick. Figures if the military can train someone to kill in a few weeks then a martial arts instructor should be able to do it as well. So my friend says nevermind, goes to another school.The instructor gives the same speech about not being able to move the kids along that quick. He actually ended up going to a number of schools until he got the answer he wanted. Even the last saying no. But then the question comes up "well what will it cost me for you to do so?"

suddenly, at triple the price, the kids are on the fast moving program and not in regular classes.

so my friend suggests i do the same. And says he tried the regular way, they are just out to take his money, the kids learned little to nothing effective quick enough over years. And his justification is "we dont have time for this. They are out to waste our time and money." as in i dont have time either to wait ten years for my child to get to the point of being able to defend themself. He explains my daughter would probably end up raped before they teach her anything worth a damn to prevent it. And goes back to his boys and their first six years as a example. "six years and they are getting their *** kicked by a kid who spent a year in jujitso and they were a three belts ahead of them... and that was just a kid. They should have been able to defend themselves against adults after six years." and then of course again

"we don't have time for these games"...

keep in mind the background however. This is part of the weapons, guns, survivalist, prepare for the worst group.

My question to him is... but is your boys learning a art now? which of course he doesn't really care. works or it doesnt. I really want my daughter learning a art. But it does pose a couple questions.

not really sure what to make of it. Not even sure what the his boys are in now but they are in the teenage years and i have a feeling it is something a little more serious in training. Keeping my daughter in her tae for now though. she likes it. i am happy with it. But far has the time and money, preparing for the worst and legitamacy of much of the training. thoughts?

Umm.....wow...where to start with this. Lets see:

First of all, this, IMO, sounds like the classic case of the parents having zero clue as to what the arts are all about. Seems they are under this assumption that by moving fast and getting belts, that somehow, that turns their kids into supermen. LOL! Of course, the new school this guy takes his kids to, is laughing all the way to the bank, because they dont give a rats *** about the quality of anyone, just the quantity of their "Black belt school" where they can brag about all the high ranks they have. Its a total joke IMO.

This guy also seems clueless, due to the fact that he's comparing the military to the typical martial arts school. The difference is, is that the military is taking the barebones material, drilling the **** out of it, and sending people off. They're not focusing on stances, kata, 500 self defense techs. They're taking the very basics. So no, you're probably not going to find that in the typical school, typical defined as TKD, Kenpo or any other art. However, you do have arts like Krav Maga, which if at the right school, and God knows those are few and far between, you will learn some very effective stuff.

But, even if the fast course, people still need to understand that they're going to have to keep training. I could take my wife, who has no MA training, spend a few months with her, showing her some effective basics, techs, etc., leaving out the kata, the traditional weapons, etc., and most likely turn her into someone that would be capable of defending herself against an attack. BUT....if she doesnt practice what she learned.....

Even something simple and effective like KM, still requires the person to train.

 

[bribrius]

Training LEO's, soldiers, and corrections officers, one can see the need for a survival based type of training, and I don't think that is appropriate for children. Children (and some adults) do not possess the maturity to wield that sort of knowledge.

.

Think this pretty much sums it up. I don't believe it has anything to do with a fast course to get belts. He just went door to door pretty much until he found someone that would do it for the right price. course now he is paying like a grand a month.....(assuming. i pay just over a hundred for one kid. he has three and is spending three times what i am per kid. almost a grand if not).

 

[bribrius]

I'm sure the ages of those boys, and of your daughter, would make a huge difference too. If he started his boys off at 3 or 4, their learning curve would be radically different than if they started at 10. If he has that survivalist mentality he may have enrolled them way too early.

And of course there's always that rebellion factor to take into account. Kids have a tendency to stray away from the parents' agenda, if only for a while. He might have done better by forbidding them even to DISCUSS martial arts in his presence. In my family that would have made it a sure thing. :ultracool

thats funny. the rebellious children problem.

yes, my daughter is nine. I have a son as well i planned on starting at five but maybe that is still too early. I believe that is the youngest any school i know will take a child student. Many wanting them at least seven i believe. I would guess his boys were at least five or six. I don't know of a school here that would take a student at three or four years old. I don't believe our mutual acquaintance he had them enrolled with would have taken them at three or four either. But i could be wrong.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really this is pretty ridiculous!

So his kid's got beat up and lost! What if they other kid was a year older. That would make a huge difference. Or heavier, yes that could also make a huge difference. Or maybe the other kid just has it and is meaner, more athletic, etc. Or as Flying Crane mentioned maybe his kid's lack the aptitude and he is just wasting his money!

Lot's of suppliers for ammo, etc. So do not let that factor influence how you handle the situation.

Personally it sounds to me like your friend just went around to all the local McDojo's found one that would give him what he wanted and proceeded to pay them a boat load of money for probably substandard training. Paying a bunch of money does not necessarily always yield the best results though in certain situations it could be good. Still your friend would probably be better off taking a long term appraoch to the Martial Sciences and letting his kid's enjoy the process! By the time they are adults at this rate they will probably never practice again and their skills will diminish to the point of probably being useless. Then they will be that guy who is sitting with their buddies saying yah I used to train. I have seen that a lot through the years! Always good for a chuckle!

 

[Josh Oakley]

So, I'm kind of surprised I'm the first person to ask this, but... who started the fight with the jujitsu kid?

Also, did the kids practice?

Seriously, they have to be prepared for the Zombie apocalypse! Right NOW!

 

[bribrius]

So, I'm kind of surprised I'm the first person to ask this, but... who started the fight with the jujitsu kid?

Also, did the kids practice?

Seriously, they have to be prepared for the Zombie apocalypse! Right NOW!

not sure on the first one. Think it was in competitions. we have competitions here, all arts welcomed. We actually have one coming up soon.

I would assume they practiced. It is a single guy, no mother, raising three boys. I am wondering if the gun business is part of the problem in this. with children having access to guns and being around the business to that extent i wonder how ambitious they are to keep up with martial arts when they realize a gun will kill somebody anyway. They go to the ranges as well. Maybe he needs to take the guns away for a while and ground them from the toys.

 

[Cirdan]

Meh. He would be much better off enrolling his kids in a Viking Berserker Arts class. Tactical warhammer and rape the rapist programs ftw. Bring a battleaxe and chainmail to the next fight with that jj kid and guess who will win, eh? There`s fast progress for you. Hail Odin!

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well, what about what the children want?
Not all of us are natural fighters. Maybe they don't want to fight. In that case, nothing you or anyone can do will make them good fighters, short of erasing their entire personality through meds or trauma.

My oldest daughter is the kind of girl whose world consists of pink, ponies, princesses, love, dancing, ... she is very smart and physically agile, and can basically do anything she wants. I don't have much hopes that she will follow my interest in martial arts.

My youngest daughter's favorite toy is a plastic sword that she carries around to 'kill the big bad wolf'. When she was 1 year old she hit me in the head with a stuffed toy because I was teasing her. Last holiday, she gut punched a boy who was a more than a head taller than her because he was trying to push her away from a toy.

See the difference? I teach my oldest to write the alphabet and Japanese kanji because that is what she loves, and I help her make 200 piece puzzles and do other things like that. I teach my youngest to box and to grapple and do rough things, because that is what she loves. They are both happy because they can grow proficient in the things they love.

Kids have a personality all of their own, and with 3 kids, they are bound to be different. If those kids are not fighters, then no amount of effort can make them so, and their dad will forever be disappointed. Likewise, the kids will grow up resenting their survivalist nutcase father.

 

[Stac3y]

being a girl i don't want to push her too hard

<sigh>

 

[xJOHNx]

They are kids. I don't want them to be killing machine's.

Because
a/ they still have a bucketload of growing up to do
b/ they do not see the moral behind everything, no have a moral compass
c/ some techniques are just to plain dangerous to learn to children.

For example: a wrist lock. A very solid technique, but horrible dangerous when used outside of it's intended context (to fend off an attacker). Say for instance a 12 year old used it on a 8 year old just to show off why he runs around in pj's. Now that can put someone in the infirmery, unneccesary.
Even grown ups still do this...

kids should be having fun, not being trained as commando's. And if kids need protection? It's up to the parents to defend them.
When in school? A solid smack should be enough, no need to use armbars and the like.

Also, I'm against full contact sparring under the age of 14. They just don't have enough moral ground to rely on.
So loosing in an open competition says pretty much nothing at all about training.

Decide for yourself.