"If there's a bridge, cross it. If there's no bridge, build one"

[kung fu fighter]

I would say about 98% of wing chun training focus on how to cross a bridge, but how do you build the bridge in order to cross it?

What's the most effective way you've found to build a bridge?

when building a bridge do you prefer arm to arm contact, or to strike the opponent's center line directly as in boxing?

Trapping works well when an opponent aggressively comes at you, but how do you build a bridge against an opponent who does not want to engage you?

I agree with what this video speaks about in regards to trapping only being done against a stationary opponent, it becomes way more difficlut to apply against a moving opponent with a boxing type structure

 

[Kwan Sau]

To question 1: strike them!
To question 2: strike them!
To question 3: opponent suggests this...based on his approach, tactics, nearest body part to me, etc
To question 4: close the gap, attack & strike them!

 

[kung fu fighter]

To question 1: strike them!

If you strike them, they are also free to strike you back, since you are not controlling their center of gravity. So if it's strike for strike without forearm bridging what makes WCK any different from western Boxing?

To question 4: close the gap, attack & strike them!

Ok, but how do you do it safely without getting knocked out on the way in as you step into the empty void as the opponent steps away to maintain his space, catching you coming forward with his counter strike?

 

[Transk53]

Ok, but how do you do it safely without getting knocked out on the way in as you step into the empty void as the opponent steps away to maintain his space, catching you coming forward with his counter strike?​

Footwork and balance of movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how do you do it safely without getting knocked out on the way in as you step into the empty void as the opponent steps away to maintain his space, catching you coming forward with his counter strike?

In the

- spear fight, you won't stab your spear at your opponent's chest without touching your spear on his spear (build bridge) first.
- fist fight, you won't move in without covering your head (shield) first.

If you can touch your opponent's "both arms" (build arm bridge) and "leading leg" (build leg bridge), you can sense his intention, and you will have less chance to be punched, elbowed, kicked, or kneed.

Here is an example.

 

[Kwan Sau]

If you strike them, they are also free to strike you back, since you are not controlling their center of gravity. So if it's strike for strike without forearm bridging what makes WCK any different from western Boxing?

Cover as you enter for the strike. Plus, western boxing does not involve leg attacks. 99% of WC'ers out there automatically assume to 'strike' MUST mean the hands only. My WC includes a robust leg system...as such, I tend to "bridge" (if thats what you want to call it) with a kick (either it lands and disrupts my opponent, or it acts as a distraction).

Ok, but how do you do it safely without getting knocked out on the way in as you step into the empty void as the opponent steps away to maintain his space, catching you coming forward with his counter strike?

Footwork, speed, strategy, tactics, etc etc. If he continues to move away from me...well...then I guess we aren't fighting.


*good topic KFF!!!!

 

[Argus]

The most important thing is not to go chasing hands in order to build a bridge.

Attack on a good line. Chase his center. If he puts something in the way, you have a bridge. If he doesn't, even better; your fist should make contact. Ideally, you don't even want a bridge - the best world is that your attack hits its intended target. It's only when there is a barrier that a bridge occurs, and we're looking to get past it so we can, once again, hit the man behind the arms.

If you're concerned with his hands, you'll inevitably find them in your face. Even meeting an attack defensively is about intercepting/occupying lines of attack, and not chasing after hands.

I find a bit of lat-sao practice is a good way to learn this, and gets you out of the habit of chasing hands.

 

[Argus]

In the

- spear fight, you won't stab your spear at your opponent's chest without touching your spear on his spear (build bridge) first.
- fist fight, you won't move in without covering your head (shield) first.

If you can touch your opponent's "both arms" (build arm bridge) and "leading leg" (build leg bridge), you can sense his intention, and you will have less chance to be punched, elbowed, kicked, or kneed.

Here is an example.

Absolutely not.

The concept of "not chasing hands" applies to fencing as well; chase the weapon, and you are no threat to your opponent, giving him the chance to change through:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Absolutely not.

The concept of "not chasing hands" applies to fencing as well; chase the weapon, and you are no threat to your opponent, giving him the chance to change through ...

In MA, a "safe entry" is trying to reduce your own risk to the minimum (unless you intend to die with your opponent at the same time). A safe entry in sword fight can be done by integrating both defense and offense into one move. This is similar to the CMA "哈拳 (Ha Quan) - spiral punch". It's the WC principle "连消带打 (Lian Xiao Dai Da) - deflect and strike at the same time".

- touch your sword on your opponent's sword (build bridge).
- apply pressure and guide her sword to your "right" (away from your entering path).
- you then enter through her "right" (the safe side).
- remain swords contact, slide your sword along her sword (sticky principle), and
- cut your sword into her body.

 

[Argus]

In MA, a "safe entry" is trying to reduce your risk to the minimum. A safe entry in sword fight can be done as the following. You have just integrated both defense and offense as one move.

- touch your sword on your opponent's sword (build bridge).
- apply pressure and guide his sword to your "right" (away from your entering path).
- you then enter through the "left" safe side.
- remain your sword on top of his sword (sticky principle).
- slide your sword along his sword (also sticky principle), and
- cut your sword into your opponent's body.

In that clip, the lady can simply drop her point to deny a bind and cut or thrust him elsewhere. My point is that you do not need to be there to meet your opponent's weapon if your opponent's weapon is not an immediate threat to your body. In that same tempo, you can simply move your own weapon out of the way and strike him in a different manner. The only safe entry is one that threatens your opponent directly.

This is not an example of lin sil dai da, as it is not in a single time. Notice that his initial movement is not towards his opponent; it is outwards, chasing the weapon, and only then glides in after making contact. A better way would be to simply cover the line with an attack in one motion, covering you and threatening your opponent in the same beat. Your opponent must then intercept your attack, as he cannot change through to attack you elsewhere without being hit himself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In that clip, the lady can simply drop her point to deny a bind ...

Since your opponent is a moving object, your bridge building will not be successful all the time. If your bridge building fail, you don't have to move in. You can always wait for next chance. This is more "conservative" approach but it can reduce your risk to the minimum.

This is not an example of lin sil dai da, as it is not in a single time.

When you use

- 2 arms, you use one arm to apply "Xiao" while use another arm to apply "Da".
- 1 arm, you use one arm to apply "Xiao", you then use the same arm to apply "Da".

 

[Argus]

Since your opponent is a moving object, if your bridge building fail, you don't have to move in. You can always wait for next chance. This is more "conservative" approach but it can reduce your risk to the minimum.

That conservative approach; that eagerness to bind itself, is the problem. It makes simultaneous attack and defense impossible, because you have prioritized one before the other. To chase an opponent's hands is to be led and misled by him; you must instead occupy lines by which he can attack you, and you can attack him. To paraphrase Lichtenauer: "He who displaces only will merely put himself in further danger" and "If you attack direct and to the man, you will not succumb to Durchwechseln, or any other such technique."

Relying on your ability to jump out of distance should you fail to bind is also a bad idea: it's a luxury of space and time to react that you won't always have, and is bad practice if you want to learn to bind properly to begin with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That conservative approach; that eagerness to bind itself, is the problem.

Whether you (general YOU) like to use this strategy or not depends on your favor "finish strategy". It's one of many strategies used in CMA. It's not the only strategy.

Is it a good idea to "chase hands"?

If you can use

- one hand to control your opponent's leading arm,
- his leading arm to jam his back arm,
- your other free hand to knock your opponent out,

that will be a good strategy.

 

[Argus]

Whether you (general YOU) like to use this strategy or not depends on your favor "finish strategy". It's one of many strategies used in CMA. It's not the only strategy.

Yes, that's true. It's definitely a different world when it comes to grappling, or FMA, or some other CMA's. But as far as general principles that apply to WC and fencing with long weapons, I feel it's a point that should not be compromised.

- 1 arm, you use one arm to apply "Xiao", you then use the same arm to apply "Da".

When you use one arm, for example, you can either cut a punch low from the outside, or come up high through the center on the inside to spread your opponent off and hit him in one motion. It is a bit more risky than using two hands -- especially on the inside, but it works, and it's how you can apply siu and da simultaneously with one hand. Otherwise, it's not simultaneous; you're still deflecting first and attacking later.

If you strike them, they are also free to strike you back, since you are not controlling their center of gravity. So if it's strike for strike without forearm bridging what makes WCK any different from western Boxing?

Because a western boxer will not adhere to lat-sao-jik-chung. He will retract his punch, giving you an opportunity to follow in; not chasing his hand, but striking him in the opening he has presented by removing his hand. If he does put something in the way, that is where chisau comes in. But if you insist on sticking to and chasing his hands, you won't enter when you're supposed to, and you'll allow yourself to be taken out of position.

 

[drop bear]

Do you guys knee?

Cos you should it makes hand trapping a peach.

Take it away bakaw.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NxpWs_DY7K8

Now notice those clinches tend to be side engagement's rather than clinchy clinches. So you can hand trap into a knee. And is sucks because you fall into it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's definitely a different world when it comes to grappling, or FMA, or some other CMA's. But as far as general principles that apply to WC and fencing with long weapons, I feel it's a point that should not be compromised..

When I modified my post, your respond had already arrived. I try not to bring the word "grappling" into this WC discussion.

Is it a good idea to "chase hands"?

If you can use

- one hand to control your opponent's leading arm,
- his leading arm to jam his back arm,
- your other free hand to knock your opponent out,

that will be a good WC strategy.

Do you guys knee?

That's a good point and we have almost forgot about it. I agree that without "clinch (bridge)", the knee strike won't be effective. Even in CMA, it's also very common to use one hand to pull your opponent's leading arm and kick his belly at the same time. If I remember correctly, the WC dummy training also has arm pulling and leg kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

... and fencing with long weapons, ...

The "bridge building" is also used in the long weapon such as the spear. Here is the most common spear technique:

- a 1/2 counter-clockwise circle (build bridge), followed by
- a 1/2 clockwise circle (build bridge again if the previous try fail), followed by
- a stab.

 

[kung fu fighter]

I liked the format KPM used in his "HOw to box with wing chun" videos. I wonder what his take is on [h=2]"If there's a bridge, cross it. If there's no bridge, build one"[/h][h=2][/h]

 

[Argus]

The "bridge building" is also used in the long weapon such as the spear. Here is the most common spear technique:

- a 1/2 counter-clockwise circle (build bridge), followed by
- a 1/2 clockwise circle (build bridge again if the previous try fail), followed by
- a stab.

This is an example of entering direct, and simultaneous attack and defense in fencing:

Notice that they cover the line and attack in the same motion. This can also be found in Wing Chun's pole form, I believe - as well as countless other weapon based arts. Lichtenauer's method of the longsword, however, is a particularly good comparison, because the principles behind it match Wing Chun almost to the letter.

 

[kung fu fighter]

Attack on a good line. Chase his center. If he puts something in the way, you have a bridge. If he doesn't, even better; your fist should make contact. Ideally, you don't even want a bridge - the best world is that your attack hits its intended target. It's only when there is a barrier that a bridge occurs, and we're looking to get past it so we can, once again, hit the man behind the arms.

If you're concerned with his hands, you'll inevitably find them in your face. Even meeting an attack defensively is about intercepting/occupying lines of attack, and not chasing after hands.

I agree! However I personally believe wing chun to be a bladed system. I recall Yip chun once said "if you put two blades in your hands, you will see the flaws of your empty hand techniques". So You have to be careful not to have a double kill as they say in FMA.

A western boxer will not adhere to lat-sao-jik-chung. He will retract his punch, giving you an opportunity to follow in; not chasing his hand, but striking him in the opening he has presented by removing his hand. If he does put something in the way, that is where chi sau comes in. But if you insist on sticking to and chasing his hands, you won't enter when you're supposed to, and you'll allow yourself to be taken out of position.

Some very good points! And I think this works really well against an opponent who aggressively comes at you, but I was referring specificly to an opponent who does not want to engage you, and you have to bring the fight to them by building a bridge to initiate an attack? one Strategy I find work well is man sao or some kind of distraction/fake entry such as kicking his shins to draw his attention low to open the high line for attacks.

Are you from WSL's line?