Hybrid Martial Arts or just scammers ?

[Oily Dragon]

I think specifics are in order. "Okinawan karate" is kinda vague and runs the gamut from George Dillman pressure point stuff to Chibana Shorin-ryu to family styles that resemble southern Chinese systems. I would know to ask clarifying questions if someone told me they taught Okinawan karate though I acknowledge most would not.

If someone told me they taught Okinawan Goju-ryu karate, I would ask their lineage and from there have a pretty good idea of what kata and movement I would expect them to be able to show me spontaneously. Hate to be vague, but it depends.

As to the larger discussion, I don't have an issue with style innovation. People forget sometimes that Okinawan karate has always accepted improvements readily. It's not uncommon for karate-ka to also know a little bit of judo and boxing, although they may not know exactly when and how it entered into their lineage.

Remember why it's called "kara" te and not "Tang" te:

Lack of respect. And not by Okinawa!

 

[Steve]

Thanks for the note, and welcome to MT. Couple of things stood out, that I think are pretty glaring if you focus on performance.

Oh that’s an easy one, the arts are never locked. However lots of students from said arts, who haven’t studied their style or system long enough to even scratch the surface of it decide to compensate for their own incompetence by looking elsewhere to add other styles into the mix even when the arts they are adding might contradict and

The presumption here is that the reward for diligence and patience is competence. So, at what point would someone have enough information to conclude that they aren't the issue?

hamper their progress in the main art they were trying to fix.

I broke this sentence up in the middle to highlight that you don't have to be an expert in something in order to evaluate that thing. This is a myth that gets tossed around here all the time, and it's complete bunk. In the real world (aka, everything else in the world except martial arts), people competently evaluate the quality of things all the time. Computers, cars, services, systems, you name it. All the time. You don't have to understand how a chip is made in order to evaluate it's performance.

You just have to be able to evaluate how it performs. Step 1 is to figure out what performance looks like... what are you trying to do? Learn Karate? Well, that's easy. Become an expert in kata? Okay... that's clear, too. Learn to fight? No problem. But you have to go to a school that does those things to learn those things. You can't learn to fight without fighting any more than you can learn kata without doing kata.

Point is, figure out what your benchmarks and evaluative criteria are and then apply that criteria to the system. We do that intuitively all the time.

It’s ok to practice more then one art but before you go ahead and make changes and additions to things that are usually fine the way they are, make sure you have already completely exhausted every angle of your studies in that particular style. If you don’t have a complete understanding of your primary style then anything you add prematurely will result in garbage.

See above. If you are in a system that you don't completely understand, but then add something to it that gets you closer to your goals, what you added isn't garbage. The trick is to know what you're trying to do, and benchmark your own skill level and success against your training. Is your training helping you perform better or not? If not... well, there is that old canard about the definition of insanity, right?

MMA is a great example. The goal is clear... to win fights. So, if they pick up a little of this and a little of that and it helps them win fights, it's value added. If not, it's garbage. Neither of those is dependent on being an expert in that system.... though the same thing applies. If being an expert in a system helps them win fights, it's good. If it does not, it's garbage. And you can often evaluate that without ever trying that new activity (though it's good to keep an open mind).

I look at it this way, cross training is only good sometimes. Imagine someone wanting to be the greatest Olympian ever by training Power lifting and Gymnastics and long distance running all at the same time. Well you say each of those sports or athletic endeavors may teach you sn amazing skill but do they really mix well and improve you or will you just end up with a steaming pile of crap.

Really? Are you an expert in Olympic Power Lifting, gymnastics, or long distance running? If not, based on the first part of your post, how can you possibly know? Don't get me wrong. You are doing exactly what I was saying above.... what we all do all the time, intuitively. And there is no difference in what you did here and someone in MMA saying, "yeah, that martial art system or school isn't going to help me."

 

[Steve]

I got called a "Schmuck" in the latest Wing Chun Centerline thread the other day, because somebody claimed that Tibetan White Crane, Hop Gar, and Lama Pai were all different names for the same art.

They're not the same art, there's a whole spider's web there. If you can't see it, maybe it's a matter of more training? I don't know.

The Thoughts of a Spiderweb

Spiders appear to offload cognitive tasks to their webs, making them one of a number of species with a mind that isn’t fully confined within the head.

getpocket.com

LOL. A schmuck?

 

[dancingalone]

Remember why it's called "kara" te and not "Tang" te:

Lack of respect. And not by Okinawa!

Agreed. In my experience, the Okinawans are just pragmatic and use whatever word will get across their meaning the best. My primary art is Goju-ryu. We fully acknowledge it is an art created by an Okinawan (Miyagi) who learned from another Okinawan (Higashionna) who studied a Chinese art(s) in Fujian, China. Trade and other ties between Okinawa and China was strong in the past and this is reflected also in the Okinawan fighting arts.

<Shrugs> I don't have an cultural bias in my MA. First I am an American. Secondly, I also study aikido at a high level and that is quintessial Nippon. And I ran a TKD school for years. LOL

 

[Oily Dragon]

LOL. A schmuck?

I think it was a phallic reference. I can't be sure.

 

[Steve]

I think it was a phallic reference. I can't be sure.

You tricked me into reading that thread. I should have known better.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You tricked me into reading that thread. I should have known better.

Same.

 

[Grandmaster Yue men quan]

Like some of your know, I've been considering joining a Martial Arts school again and while I'm currently waiting because of time and money. For the past two years I've been looking around.
Some of the local schools I've seen, are really great around my area. However... Without "pointing fingers" I have seen a few, that are more towards hybrid styles, although they claim they are traditional.

I have also seen many folks on YouTube stating they are teaching xyz Martial Art, yet they are not honest to their viewers on what they are showing and sometimes teaching live, is a Martial Art that they themselves modified.

I have NO issues with hybrid Martial Arts, but if you have a video on YouTube or even a school that you are teaching.. For example Aikido.. and you are teaching boxing covers, knees and elbows from Muay Thai Kickboxing as a part of your school.. SORRY that's not being honest and ethical. If I am wrong or missing something here, please let me know and correct me.

How we did it in the old days ask the teacher to fight if he pretty competently kicks your ***. He might have something to teach. Then ask how much classes are. Just because you haven't heard of it or it's different from what you see as normal doesn't mean it might not be better. Jeet kune do was once a brand new Martial art.

 

[Steve]

How we did it in the old days ask the teacher to fight if he pretty competently kicks your ***. He might have something to teach. Then ask how much classes are. Just because you haven't heard of it or it's different from what you see as normal doesn't mean it might not be better. Jeet kune do was once a brand new Martial art.

I like it. Out of curiosity, what do you mean when you say "old days?"

 

[skribs]

Oh that’s an easy one, the arts are never locked. However lots of students from said arts, who haven’t studied their style or system long enough to even scratch the surface of it decide to compensate for their own incompetence by looking elsewhere to add other styles into the mix even when the arts they are adding might contradict and hamper their progress in the main art they were trying to fix. It’s ok to practice more then one art but before you go ahead and make changes and additions to things that are usually fine the way they are, make sure you have already completely exhausted every angle of your studies in that particular style. If you don’t have a complete understanding of your primary style then anything you add prematurely will result in garbage. I look at it this way, cross training is only good sometimes. Imagine someone wanting to be the greatest Olympian ever by training Power lifting and Gymnastics and long distance running all at the same time. Well you say each of those sports or athletic endeavors may teach you sn amazing skill but do they really mix well and improve you or will you just end up with a steaming pile of crap.

So what is "a complete understanding"? Must you know all of the moves of your art? Who defines what all of those moves are? How well must you know all of those moves?

I'm a TKD guy. I can do 540 kicks. I can't do 720 kicks. Does that mean I shouldn't add anything from any other art until I can do a 720 kick?

 

[Steve]

So what is "a complete understanding"? Must you know all of the moves of your art? Who defines what all of those moves are? How well must you know all of those moves?

I'm a TKD guy. I can do 540 kicks. I can't do 720 kicks. Does that mean I shouldn't add anything from any other art until I can do a 720 kick?

You can do a 540 kick? I’m impressed.

 

[geezer]

You can do a 540 kick? I’m impressed.

Yep. No personal innovation until you perfect a 1080° .... or at the very least a 900° rotational kick. Gotta achieve some basic standard of competence, right?


Now I'm trying to imagine what such a kick would even look like. I guess I should watch some figure skating clips of triple and quadruple jumps?

 

[isshinryuronin]

A few thoughts on "hybridization."

Karate is indeed a true hybrid art, being a melding of mostly southern Chinese fighting and native Okinawan fighting methods. Each transformed by the other into something recognizably distinct from its parents - its parts being now physically inseparable. This is akin to a "solution" or "alloy" in chemistry, where components are molecularly, or at least homogenously joined.

(Please forgive any inacuracies here as chemistry was my worst subject in school, but I hope you get my point.)

Now compare this with a "suspension" or a pine wooden plank strengthened with a strip of ash nailed along its length. Here, each component has not become an integral part of the other and can be easily separated. They are heterogenous. This description fits many so-called "hybrid" arts out there.

Merely taking a karate style and tossing in a few boxing or judo moves does not, to me, create a new style. It's just karate + some other stuff. They are "bundled" like car and home insurance, or phone and TV service. There's nothing wrong with doing so, it's just not a "new" product or invention, or art. Or see this as the difference between just shacking up together (fun physical bonding) to being truly married (lots of work and deep spiritual bonding.)

So, I would view a hybrid MA style thru similar lenses. Is it a collection of assorted techniques bundled together, or something inherently melded together in a unique way with its own identity?

 

[drop bear]

Yep. No personal innovation until you perfect a 1080° .... or at the very least a 900° rotational kick. Gotta achieve some basic standard of competence, right?


Now I'm trying to imagine what such a kick would even look like. I guess I should watch some figure skating clips of triple and quadruple jumps?

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Like some of your know, I've been considering joining a Martial Arts school again and while I'm currently waiting because of time and money. For the past two years I've been looking around.
Some of the local schools I've seen, are really great around my area. However... Without "pointing fingers" I have seen a few, that are more towards hybrid styles, although they claim they are traditional.

I have also seen many folks on YouTube stating they are teaching xyz Martial Art, yet they are not honest to their viewers on what they are showing and sometimes teaching live, is a Martial Art that they themselves modified.

I have NO issues with hybrid Martial Arts, but if you have a video on YouTube or even a school that you are teaching.. For example Aikido.. and you are teaching boxing covers, knees and elbows from Muay Thai Kickboxing as a part of your school.. SORRY that's not being honest and ethical. If I am wrong or missing something here, please let me know and correct me.

Relax. I have been practicing and teaching for fifty years "my version" of American Kenpo. There is nothing wrong with adding to what you all ready know. If say I compete at tournaments, then I would do the Kenpo forms exactly how I was taught. When it comes to self defense techniques, I add what I what to add, for the best self defense. Kenpo had no real joint locks because it was thought to slow you down. But in reality, I have found that it may help you against a huge foe. I'm 5'2" and if a 250 strong six foot guy grabbed my wrist in front and was shaking me like a rag doll where I couldn/t get a good kick at him, then I would employ a joint lock move and get him into a joint lock and be behind him for a strong shin strike to his groin from behind. Whatever you add, it must blend well with what you know and must be effective.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

 

[Old Happy Tiger]

Relax. I have been practicing and teaching for fifty years "my version" of American Kenpo. There is nothing wrong with adding to what you all ready know. If say I compete at tournaments, then I would do the Kenpo forms exactly how I was taught. When it comes to self defense techniques, I add what I what to add, for the best self defense. Kenpo had no real joint locks because it was thought to slow you down. But in reality, I have found that it may help you against a huge foe. I'm 5'2" and if a 250 strong six foot guy grabbed my wrist in front and was shaking me like a rag doll where I couldn/t get a good kick at him, then I would employ a joint lock move and get him into a joint lock and be behind him for a strong shin strike to his groin from behind. Whatever you add, it must blend well with what you know and must be effective.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

Sifu, I'm going send you a PM directly.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Relax. I have been practicing and teaching for fifty years "my version" of American Kenpo. There is nothing wrong with adding to what you all ready know. If say I compete at tournaments, then I would do the Kenpo forms exactly how I was taught. When it comes to self defense techniques, I add what I what to add, for the best self defense. Kenpo had no real joint locks because it was thought to slow you down. But in reality, I have found that it may help you against a huge foe. I'm 5'2" and if a 250 strong six foot guy grabbed my wrist in front and was shaking me like a rag doll where I couldn/t get a good kick at him, then I would employ a joint lock move and get him into a joint lock and be behind him for a strong shin strike to his groin from behind. Whatever you add, it must blend well with what you know and must be effective.
Sifu
Puyallup, WA

When you post these things, it seems like it would be more honest if you mention that you were a brown belt and self-promoted to 10th Dan.

 

[O'Malley]

Like some of your know, I've been considering joining a Martial Arts school again and while I'm currently waiting because of time and money. For the past two years I've been looking around.
Some of the local schools I've seen, are really great around my area. However... Without "pointing fingers" I have seen a few, that are more towards hybrid styles, although they claim they are traditional.

I have also seen many folks on YouTube stating they are teaching xyz Martial Art, yet they are not honest to their viewers on what they are showing and sometimes teaching live, is a Martial Art that they themselves modified.

I have NO issues with hybrid Martial Arts, but if you have a video on YouTube or even a school that you are teaching.. For example Aikido.. and you are teaching boxing covers, knees and elbows from Muay Thai Kickboxing as a part of your school.. SORRY that's not being honest and ethical. If I am wrong or missing something here, please let me know and correct me.

Why would that not be honest nor ethical? Nobody today trains like the founder of aikido did anyway. What's more, some top ranked aikido teachers taught knee, elbow or even head strikes.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Like some of your know, I've been considering joining a Martial Arts school again and while I'm currently waiting because of time and money. For the past two years I've been looking around.
Some of the local schools I've seen, are really great around my area. However... Without "pointing fingers" I have seen a few, that are more towards hybrid styles, although they claim they are traditional.

I have also seen many folks on YouTube stating they are teaching xyz Martial Art, yet they are not honest to their viewers on what they are showing and sometimes teaching live, is a Martial Art that they themselves modified.

I have NO issues with hybrid Martial Arts, but if you have a video on YouTube or even a school that you are teaching.. For example Aikido.. and you are teaching boxing covers, knees and elbows from Muay Thai Kickboxing as a part of your school.. SORRY that's not being honest and ethical. If I am wrong or missing something here, please let me know and correct me.

Martial arts have a core, the rest is malleable.
Most Martial artist go through phases that
correspond to stages in life. For instance, Young people
like to test their skills, and earn/win accolades.
The sport aspect of a Martial art may be emphasized,
and this may be augmented for competition.
There are those only concerned with self defense,
this requires a different emphasis.
Then there are the traditionalists. (usually older ).
IMO it is all good as long as it is based on solid
basics and traditional forms.
Non-traditional forms , and competition forms may be
added, (its ok to have fun) but at the core of traditional training
are basics and traditional forms, most will
return to this, if they continue to practice throughout
their life. If you do not see this in a School , I would
go elsewhere.

 

[jayoliver00]

So, again if there is a school that is teaching for example traditional Okinawan Karate AND advertising it as such has a new student that joins that school to learn that style of Okinawan Karate and only ends up on the mat learning and practicing BJJ/grappling in that school, then that is 100% "ok" in today standards?

I get what you're saying. I was in a Wushu school to learn weapons and they had a class dabbling with BJJ.

I think by today's standards is that they're trying to pay the bills in order to stay open; so they will annoy some people who are purists while following with the times and adapting to MMA, in order to produce competitive fighters to keep the school exciting & relevant.