How Much Grappling?

[MJS]

Its pretty much a given that its a very good idea to include some sort of grappling, ie: BJJ, Judo, Sambo...into your training. My question is, how much do you feel that you need to have? Would the basics be enough, or does one need to really dig deep and work on more technical aspects?

I'll reserve my comments for a while to see what others have to say.

Mike

 

[matt.m]

Grappling is good to have in the ole defense toolbox. However, let me say this....If you don't practice the technique it is worthless.

For example, I have 23 gold medals from international Judo Randori from my time in the Marines. There is no way, let me repeat, no way I could even dream of competing at anything higher than a local city level now after being out of it for ten years.

Besides that, if you don't look at a technique as second nature then you won't commit 100% to doing it, therefore it will be very ineffective.

Just my opinion.

 

[Andrew Green]

You don't need anything, don't need any martial arts at all. Question is what you want, and what you are willing to do to get it. Suppose I am a boxer, I realise that my style lacks kicks, wrestling, submissions, weapons, etc. So I take them up, sacrificing some boxing time to do so. SUddenly I am not as competitive of a boxer because I am not as focused.

The claim that you "need" X is marketing, that's all. You don't need it, you just got the people that are selling it trying to convince you that you do

 

[exile]

You don't need anything, don't need any martial arts at all. Question is what you want, and what you are willing to do to get it. Suppose I am a boxer, I realise that my style lacks kicks, wrestling, submissions, weapons, etc. So I take them up, sacrificing some boxing time to do so. SUddenly I am not as competitive of a boxer because I am not as focused.

The claim that you "need" X is marketing, that's all. You don't need it, you just got the people that are selling it trying to convince you that you do

I have a slightly different take on this. Let's say you're in a striking art, e.g. an Okinawan/Japanese/Korean karate style. It's a striking art, but you still need grappling---to set up your strikes at close fighting range. You don't want to go to the ground, but you need to know how to adapt your striking art to the ground so you can get off the ground asap. Your katas/hyungs etc. actually identify grabs, locks, forcing moves to set up the strikes that are the finishers. These are grappling techniques, but in the service of your dominant striking strategy---along the lines that many now argue was intended by the founders of the various karate styles.

So maybe the answer is, you need need as much grappling as effective application of your art's strategy requires of you---which is more, in a lot of cases, than has been taught in recent decades in the striking arts, largely I think because of the effect of the sports competition angle (not just TKD, where the effect is so obvious because of the Olympic angle, but in `sport karate' too). And if that's the right answer, then if you're doing a striking art you probably don't want to train in grappling by going to BJJ or wrestling or whatever, because those arts are based on very different strategic ideas; you want grappling that implements karate's strategic ideas. The tough part is, figuring out how to get that training, since my impression is, it's offered in very few dojangs and isn't universal in dojos either.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think my point was missed

Most people who train, are never going to need ANY self-defence skills. This is a hobby, and you should focus on what you enjoy, not what you need "in case x happens"

I train MMA, I can grapple, I can strike, I can fight in a clinch, and I can even fight with weapons. But in all honesty, I don't think I will ever use any of that on a person outside of a martial arts club.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I think my point was missed

Most people who train, are never going to need ANY self-defence skills. This is a hobby, and you should focus on what you enjoy, not what you need "in case x happens"

I train MMA, I can grapple, I can strike, I can fight in a clinch, and I can even fight with weapons. But in all honesty, I don't think I will ever use any of that on a person outside of a martial arts club.

I wish my life reflected this...gotta move out of Baltimore LOL. But you are right. The VAST majority of martial art practitioners don't NEED them.

For those that do train, however, I say train beyond the basics of anything you train. The basics are just that BASIC and will only go so far.

 

[Andrew Green]

I wish my life reflected this...gotta move out of Baltimore LOL. But you are right. The VAST majority of martial art practitioners don't NEED them.

And for those that do, they probably have a better idea of what they need then anyone.

 

[exile]

For those that do train, however, I say train beyond the basics of anything you train. The basics are just that BASIC and will only go so far.

Yes, exactly---whatever your motive for learning a MA, if your art incorporates a grappling element as a component---and many do, but covertly---then it's worth training that component along with the other stuff, because otherwise you're missing part of the whole system you think you're learning.

 

[MattJ]

I agree with Andrew. How much you "need" is really depending on what you want it for. If you really "need" it, you will know exactly how much you need. Otherwise, train enough to be happy with it.

 

[Dark]

Its pretty much a given that its a very good idea to include some sort of grappling, ie: BJJ, Judo, Sambo...into your training. My question is, how much do you feel that you need to have? Would the basics be enough, or does one need to really dig deep and work on more technical aspects?

I'll reserve my comments for a while to see what others have to say.

Mike

Well coming from a ninjitsu background, all our hand to hand stuff is basically traditional jujitsu, I've taken a more modern approach to this concept. How much grappling is needed, enough to deal with a compentant opponent i.e. alittle more then the bare minimum.

The same can be said for striking as well, I prefer a well rounded mix...

 

[DeLamar.J]

Its pretty much a given that its a very good idea to include some sort of grappling, ie: BJJ, Judo, Sambo...into your training. My question is, how much do you feel that you need to have? Would the basics be enough, or does one need to really dig deep and work on more technical aspects?

I'll reserve my comments for a while to see what others have to say.

Mike

I just try to learn enough to try and keep them from taking me down. But at some point you will be taken down if the grappler is good enough, so you need a basic understanding of how to defend yourself and get off the ground as fast as possible. I guess it depends on how you like to fight. I personally hate being on the ground, so everything I learn about grappling is only to help me stay off the ground.
I would say I train 90% stand up, 10% ground grappling.

 

[MJS]

You don't need anything, don't need any martial arts at all. Question is what you want, and what you are willing to do to get it. Suppose I am a boxer, I realise that my style lacks kicks, wrestling, submissions, weapons, etc. So I take them up, sacrificing some boxing time to do so. SUddenly I am not as competitive of a boxer because I am not as focused.

The claim that you "need" X is marketing, that's all. You don't need it, you just got the people that are selling it trying to convince you that you do

Thats true, there are alot of things that we don't 'need' to do, and we all train for different reasons, so considering I train for SD, regardless of whether or not I 'need' it, I'd rather have it and never need it, than to need it and not have it.

So...that being said....I'm interested to hear your thoughts on how much grappling one would need, if they were to gear their training towards SD?

Mike

 

[MJS]

I said that I'd post my thoughts, so here they are. If we were to look at someone like Chuck Lidell and Maurice Smith, it seems to me that they don't have a huge grappling background, but they have enough to avoid being taken down and if on the ground, enough to be able to survive and get back to a standing position. Looking at that, one would assume that the bare minimum would be good enough.

For myself, I tend to be more in the middle of the road. I feel that I have a good enough understanding to handle myself against the average Joe or someone with a basic ground game themselves. I enjoy rolling and BJJ overall, so I certainly don't turn away the chance to learn a new lock, escape, etc., but I don't make it a top priority to learn a ton of variations. I'd much rather stay upright, but I also realize that if you want to defend something its important to know about it.

Mike

 

[pstarr]

Depending upon what you're training - if it's primarily a striking or grappling system - I'd suggest at least a 25% emphasis on grappling if you're focusing on self-defense. Most skirmishes start off with a grab or a push which is often followed by a quick punch and then the opponent will usually try to wrestle in one way or another. You have to be capable of dealing with that kind of situation.

 

[Andrew Green]

If you where training for self-defence, I'd put wrestling at the top of the list, submissions not so much, but lots of wrestling.

On top of that would be some boxing, weapons work, and pain compliance stuff.

Lots of sparring, scenario type set ups.

All types of things. Hit hard and run, takedown and pin, clinch and control.

I know a lot of people think self-defence is only about hurting as much as possible as they threatened you, but what about a drunken buddy that gets out of control? Or a obnoxious person getting in your face? Sometimes you need to be able to get control WITHOUT hurting the other person.

 

[terryl965]

MJS We work on it atleast once a week mostly for the incast senerio and to work on how to avoid the takedown.
Terry

 

[MJS]

I know a lot of people think self-defence is only about hurting as much as possible as they threatened you, but what about a drunken buddy that gets out of control? Or a obnoxious person getting in your face? Sometimes you need to be able to get control WITHOUT hurting the other person.

Agreed. IMHO, I think that a grappling background would be a big plus in a case like this. Being able to put them in a submissive position, without causing damage would be a better choice than breaking their nose.

Mike

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Grappling is a good idea to have. I think a strong technical understanding of the basics will help you be well rounded but if you are looking for competition dig much deeper. Let's face it to advanced of movements in real life adds more chance to failing to make it work. Stick to the strong basics for real life.

 

[Dark]

Grappling is a good idea to have. I think a strong technical understanding of the basics will help you be well rounded but if you are looking for competition dig much deeper. Let's face it to advanced of movements in real life adds more chance to failing to make it work. Stick to the strong basics for real life.

Advanced techniques, requires that "technical understanding of the basics... IMHO